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post #121 of 150 Old 01-04-2019, 01:23 AM
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Originally Posted by morphinapg View Post
On the flashing black level screen I can see 72 flashing, which is 0.002 nits in the content. Considering most HDR tends to be graded on monitors that have a minimum of 0.005 nits, I'd say that's pretty decent. Although I have a feeling I might see darker if it was a screen with only one value displayed, similar to the near black slides, but even darker. But I don't feel like creating new patterns to check that at this time. When viewing the full flashing black clip pattern, I don't notice any raised black levels at Brightess of 52. However, I do notice a very faint glow on a full black pattern when brightness is 52, so even those dark greys are possibly making the darker blacks harder to see when they're on the screen at the same time.

For the white clip flashing patterns, I saw 740 flashing, which is about 1200 nits according to my reference. That being said, on my own custom made patterns, pattern 723 (~1000 nits) measured at 693.4 nits, pattern 789 (~2000 nits) measured at 696.9 nits, and pattern 855 (~4000 nits) measured at 697.2 nits. So the TV is still preserving some detail above that 1200 nit level in its tonemapping, but it's obviously very subtle, too subtle to recognize in the flashing patterns.

Before I started my calibration I was able to determine that the TV wasn't preserving any signal above the 4000 nit level, so 697.2 nits is my TV's peak brightness, as per my last measurements (this does fluctuate slightly up and down from my experience)
I just noticed something. When I was checking this before, I was on my HDR Game mode, which wasn't calibrated (except for 2pt in the service menu). I rechecked on my calibrated HDR Standard mode, and while my darkest flashing black is the same 72 (not surprising since I didn't change the lowest control point), my brightest flashing white is 808, which is about 2450 nits. That sounds a bit closer to my expectations.

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post #122 of 150 Old 01-04-2019, 04:20 AM
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Originally Posted by stash64 View Post
I will say that the full screen black is obviously not realistic and so I suspect that black crush would not occur too frequently with real movie material. The flashing black patterns provide a more realistic APL in terms of dark movie scenes.
99,99% of real moovies have black bars and you will see very clearly when black level is raised.

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post #123 of 150 Old 01-04-2019, 04:24 AM
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Originally Posted by morphinapg View Post
On the flashing black level screen I can see 72 flashing, which is 0.002 nits in the content. Considering most HDR tends to be graded on monitors that have a minimum of 0.005 nits, I'd say that's pretty decent. Although I have a feeling I might see darker if it was a screen with only one value displayed, similar to the near black slides, but even darker. But I don't feel like creating new patterns to check that at this time. When viewing the full flashing black clip pattern, I don't notice any raised black levels at Brightess of 52. However, I do notice a very faint glow on a full black pattern when brightness is 52, so even those dark greys are possibly making the darker blacks harder to see when they're on the screen at the same time.
You just find golden mean for yourself: a little black crush, a little of shadow detail crush.

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post #124 of 150 Old 01-04-2019, 05:29 AM
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Personally, for me true black is more important than seeing every single detail in the shadows, but like I said before, a minimum shadow detail level of 0.002 nits is easily good enough, considering most movies are authored with monitors that are defined as having a minimum black of 0.005 nits.

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post #125 of 150 Old 01-04-2019, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by morphinapg View Post
However, I do notice a very faint glow on a full black pattern when brightness is 52, so even those dark greys are possibly making the darker blacks harder to see when they're on the screen at the same time.

Personally, for me true black is more important than seeing every single detail in the shadows,
did you measured black pattern with a calibrator?

did you checked short clips from real content?
http://drive.google.com/drive/folde...mnu8gFDspZwbDc

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post #126 of 150 Old 01-04-2019, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by ultrasilent View Post
did you measured black pattern with a calibrator?



did you checked short clips from real content?

http://drive.google.com/drive/folde...mnu8gFDspZwbDc
My meter measures anything below about 0.01 nits as pure black. You have to use your eyes for anything darker. I sit in a completely blacked out room, at night, with a pure black screen. I sit for about a minute for my eyes to adjust to the darkness and see if I can see any glow coming from the screen. If I can, the brightness is turned down. If I can't, I try turning the brightness up and see if that causes a glow. Using this method I determined 51 was the highest value where I still get true black in HDR on my set. At 52 there is a faint glow. I'm not interested in turning it up to achieve a slight bit more theoretical shadow detail at the sacrifice of true black. Especially since again, being able to see detail encoded as dark as 0.002 nits (determined from the EOTF reference, not a meter) is absolutely fine. Heck, most HDR movies I watch, it rarely goes true black even at my settings.

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post #127 of 150 Old 01-04-2019, 07:30 AM
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[QUOTE=morphinapg;57374560Heck, most HDR movies I watch, it rarely goes true black even at my settings.

Sent from my OnePlus One using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

clipping from code 72 is not really bad.
Did you tryied to watch clips from my link above and adjust Black level to compare shadow detail at the same time?

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post #128 of 150 Old 01-04-2019, 01:24 PM
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99,99% of real moovies have black bars and you will see very clearly when black level is raised.
More like 75-80%... but I've not yet watched an HDR10 movie because I still have not purchased a 4K player. However, I've not noticed any problem with black bars on SDR material via my bluray player and no issues with shadow detail when watching Dolby Vision content via Netflix.

I should have mentioned that I have an LG C8 OLED. I have been using a brightness setting of 55 where as most other owners are using 50, perhaps because of the "black bars". After viewing the full black pattern, I do agree there seems to be an issue with how this (and other OLED's, I assume) are processing near black. Until I have a chance to view some HDR10 content, I plan to stick with the 55 brightness setting because it is obvious to me that a lower setting will result in loss of shadow detail.

Anyway... Big THANKS to M-V for all the fine work on the test patterns !
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post #129 of 150 Old 01-04-2019, 02:19 PM
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However, I've not noticed any problem with black bars on SDR material via my bluray player and no issues with shadow detail when watching Dolby Vision content via Netflix.

I should have mentioned that I have an LG C8 OLED. I have been using a brightness setting of 55 where as most other owners are using 50, perhaps because of the "black bars". After viewing the full black pattern, I do agree there seems to be an issue with how this (and other OLED's, I assume) are processing near black.
There some models which shipped from factory with near black details clipped, so it will require the brightness to be raised to higher setting from the typical setting most users are using, in some cases it will require to set brightness up to 62-65 range.

Just these displays will loose the internal LUT capabilities, because Brightness 50 is required for internal LUT tables to work, even adjusting sub-brightness from service menu will not help. (but you can use external 3D LUT device to store there the correction, so to be able to use whatever brightness setting will resolve the factory issue.)

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post #130 of 150 Old 01-04-2019, 02:30 PM
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^^^
That's not good. Sounds like you are saying that my C8 is defective.

I was planning on calibrating the C8 myself in a month or two but it sounds like I will not have an easy time of it.
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post #131 of 150 Old 01-04-2019, 02:45 PM
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Big THANKS to M-V for all the fine work on the test patterns !
Test patterns made by one team, M-V included, and coded by mehanik99 personally.
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post #132 of 150 Old 01-04-2019, 02:54 PM
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That's not good. Sounds like you are saying that my C8 is defective.

I was planning on calibrating the C8 myself in a month or two but it sounds like I will not have an easy time of it.
Since its a problem that can be fixed using brightness control, when you will perform manual cal you will have no problem. You will have problem only if you will perform internal 3D LUT display charactarization, not when you will perform calibration using normal menu 2/20-Point RGB balance etc.

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post #133 of 150 Old 01-04-2019, 02:58 PM
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Since its a problem that can be fixed using brightness control, when you will perform manual cal you will have no problem. You will have problem only if you will perform internal 3D LUT display charactarization, not when you will perform calibration using normal menu 2/20-Point RGB balance etc.
I appreciate the feedback Ted, though it is still disappointing because a big reason I decided to finally by an OLED was the addition of the Calman Autocal and 3D LUT capability in the 2018 models.
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post #134 of 150 Old 01-04-2019, 02:59 PM
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Since its a problem that can be fixed using brightness control, when you will perform manual cal you will have no problem. You will have problem only if you will perform internal 3D LUT display charactarization, not when you will perform calibration using normal menu 2/20-Point RGB balance etc.
As I understand, it is impossible to not loose shadow detail and to preserve pitch black black level at the same time with any settings and calibrations. Looks like it is display or technolodgy limitations.

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post #135 of 150 Old 01-04-2019, 03:02 PM
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As I understand, it is impossible to not loose shadow detail and to preserve pitch black black level at the same time with any settings and calibrations. Looks like it is display or technolodgy limitations.

You can resolve the problem using Brightness adjustment and probably improve your near black by using 5% Grey RGB balance control also. It can be fixed, don't worry, for calibration using the normal OSD menu controls you can resolve it.

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post #136 of 150 Old 01-04-2019, 03:09 PM
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You can resolve the problem using Brightness adjustment and probably improve your near black by using 5% Grey RGB balance control also. It can be fixed, don't worry, for calibration using the normal OSD menu controls you can resolve it.
Probably is good word but nobody has achieved this. I know how parametric works (RGB balance). You can adjust very finely only that point which you moove (5%). You need 0% point exactly...
and when you moove it down (-) you will loose shadow details again. Our team mate tryied all this many times without any big success.

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post #137 of 150 Old 01-04-2019, 03:15 PM
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Probably is good word but nobody has achieved this. I know how parametric works (RGB balance). You can adjust very finely only that point which you moove (5%). You need 0% point exactly...
and when you moove it down (-) you will loose shadow details again. Our team mate tryied all this many times without any big success.
Changing RGB balance of 5% will affect near black also (or changing global gamma setting). I have no problem finding out what is happening with measurements, since K-10A can measure any single change your eyes can't notice, so to see which adjustments provide better overall performance to near black measurements.

These measurements are difficult with i1Display PRO since you can measure from about 2% Gray and higher. Generally perfection is not possible with OLED to near black, just you see what is the best balance without increasing your black level.

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post #138 of 150 Old 01-04-2019, 03:16 PM
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I appreciate the feedback Ted, though it is still disappointing because a big reason I decided to finally by an OLED was the addition of the Calman Autocal and 3D LUT capability in the 2018 models.
http://01900888.com/forum/139-d...l#post57075524

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post #139 of 150 Old 01-04-2019, 03:27 PM
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Changing RGB balance of 5% will affect
Generally perfection is not possible with OLED to near black, just you see what is the best balance without increasing your black level.
I would say:
Changing RGB balance of 5% will affect [mostly a 5% point and points about it...(4 and 6)]
Generally perfection is not possible with OLED to near black, just you see what is the best balance without increasing your black level [too much].

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post #140 of 150 Old 01-05-2019, 04:21 AM
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For example, even though shadows were closer to the proper target, 100 nits content played at around 140 nits.

Have you tried to measure with different metadata? In my B6 code 502 measures 88 nits with 4000 nit metadata and 105 nits with 1000 nit metadata.
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Have you tried to measure with different metadata? In my B6 code 502 measures 88 nits with 4000 nit metadata and 105 nits with 1000 nit metadata.
You shouldn't calibrate (an OLED) with 1000 or 4000 (or any other number higher than the display capability) nit metadata. You can validate / investigate how tone-mapping works with such patterns, but for calibration only zero or less than display capability metadata should be used. Otherwise display will tone-map according to its algorithms and tone-mapping is not something that needs to be calibrated.

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post #142 of 150 Old 01-05-2019, 04:35 PM
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My custom HDR patterns don't have metadata, but the thing is, the calibration controls aren't going to give you wildly different results for different tonemapping. Tonemapping should be applied after the calibration controls are. So while yes, certain values will be darker or brighter depending on the metadata, the accuracy of the grayscale and the nit over nit flatness of the EOTF in those first ~400 nits or so will stay the same, which is then modified brighter or darker based on that tonemapping.

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post #143 of 150 Old 01-06-2019, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by morphinapg View Post
My custom HDR patterns don't have metadata, but the thing is, the calibration controls aren't going to give you wildly different results for different tonemapping. Tonemapping should be applied after the calibration controls are. So while yes, certain values will be darker or brighter depending on the metadata, the accuracy of the grayscale and the nit over nit flatness of the EOTF in those first ~400 nits or so will stay the same, which is then modified brighter or darker based on that tonemapping.
"SHOULD" stay the same. They very often do not, and the TV's tonemapping algorithm varies between manufacturers and isn't published.

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is there DVD verison of this I can burn and then run in my ps4? I made dvd of this AVCHD (.7z)for normal calibrations that I did via my PS4, I pretty much only intrested in getting the white and blacks correct in HDR just like SDR. Seeing and the "standard" color is not to my taste as such usual put up too I like it.


I tried use Google drive link but some of video dont play on my pc, so I perfer it disc form I can use in my PS4. I have tcl s517 and I know it cant really produce HDR correct. For most part I think I have the Whites and Blacks correct in HDR mode which was, (HDR Normal), Backlight 80, Brightness 49,Contrast 99, Color temp Normal, Which pretty much identical to my SDR calibrations only for SDR I using Movie mode, and has 50 brightness.


I think HDR in Horizon Zero Dawn look great, if the color are lil less vibrate, which I not been able to fix yet ( increasing color only does so much). FFXV look ok, for some reason HDR make blue purple and if I stand in suns glare Everything become unbearably bright and washed out, but out side of the glare it look pretty good.


PC wise I can force HDR mode and I can set it up, Though there seem to be some glitch with HDR in windows that cause it to all washed when first actived, after switch it of and back on it look ok, it Tad brighter then I like for instance my wallpaper isnt supposed to bright, but HDR make tad brighter and color are bit washed out.
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post #145 of 150 Old 01-10-2019, 06:38 AM - Thread Starter
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@tsunami2311
Last time I've checked PS4 Pro couldn't play UHD HDR videos. I believe that burning patterns on a disk won't make any difference.
But if you have HDR capable PC you can play patterns using software player (e.g. MPC-BE) and madVR video renderer. Getting HDR to work in Windows is sometimes tricky and depends on several factors (driver version, windows and madvr settings, etc.). Check following topic: http://01900888.com/forum/26-ho...t-working.html
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post #146 of 150 Old 01-10-2019, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by tsunami2311 View Post
is there DVD verison of this I can burn and then run in my ps4? I made dvd of this AVCHD (.7z)for normal calibrations that I did via my PS4, I pretty much only intrested in getting the white and blacks correct in HDR just like SDR. Seeing and the "standard" color is not to my taste as such usual put up too I like it.


I tried use Google drive link but some of video dont play on my pc, so I perfer it disc form I can use in my PS4. I have tcl s517 and I know it cant really produce HDR correct. For most part I think I have the Whites and Blacks correct in HDR mode which was, (HDR Normal), Backlight 80, Brightness 49,Contrast 99, Color temp Normal, Which pretty much identical to my SDR calibrations only for SDR I using Movie mode, and has 50 brightness.
.
I always play the HDR patterns via media server. Another alternative is via USB
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post #147 of 150 Old 01-16-2019, 10:38 AM
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Hi Vladimir et al,


I really appreciate what you've created here, many thanks for that!


Especially interesting for me are the Patterns with different (fake) metadata, because I want to evaluate what the HDR Optimizer in the Panasonic UHD Players does (the 424/420 in my case). AFAIK it relies on the static metadata, I think it takes also the Mastering Display luminance (Max Lum) into account.


Since my JVC projector can only Show MaxFALL and MaxCLL:
Can I ask you what Mastering Display Luminance is encoded into the metadata of your Patterns (esp. those with the fake metadata), is it always the same (like 4000 nits e.g.) or does it also vary with the other fake metadata MaxCLL and MaxFALL?


Thanks in advance and keep up the good work!
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post #148 of 150 Old 01-17-2019, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by audiohobbit View Post
Can I ask you what Mastering Display Luminance is encoded into the metadata of your Patterns (esp. those with the fake metadata), is it always the same (like 4000 nits e.g.) or does it also vary with the other fake metadata MaxCLL and MaxFALL?
You can use the MediaInfo to drag-n-drop there any HDR10 video pattern file and check the infoframe metadata values, additionally you can see a lot of other info, just select View -> Text.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
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V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
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post #149 of 150 Old 01-17-2019, 10:46 AM
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Cool, thanks. Will try this at the weekend.


Maybe you know also a simple tool where you can edit/add HDR10 metadata to videofiles?
All I found so far are commercial expensive software products.

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post #150 of 150 Old 01-17-2019, 01:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiohobbit View Post
Since my JVC projector can only Show MaxFALL and MaxCLL:
Can I ask you what Mastering Display Luminance is encoded into the metadata of your Patterns (esp. those with the fake metadata), is it always the same (like 4000 nits e.g.) or does it also vary with the other fake metadata MaxCLL and MaxFALL?

It's same for all test patterns:
Mastering display luminance : min: 0.0005 cd/m2, max: 1000 cd/m2

Calibration patterns have several variants of MDL: 0/1000 and 0.0005/4000 cd/m2

Also, as Ted already noted, mediainfo tool is very useful for verifying video parameters.




P.S.

Thanks for kind words!
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