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post #2581 of 2686 Old 01-11-2019, 01:34 AM
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Originally Posted by cobhc2010 View Post
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Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
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Originally Posted by BlackJoker View Post
It doesn't help the users at all what's going on here again. Ted it seems like you have some good idea and you should use other ways to reach out to LG if you are really interested to improve the implementation of the iTPG instead of posting them here. This thread it's going off track once again.
Fabio is that you? Lol Joking!
I know Fabio and Ted really well now as we share opinions and experience on a daily basis and they’re both super cool guys. So I don’t like when someone with 132 posts in 8 years (probably almost all spent in things like that) tries to diminish the credibility of one of them for no reason other than the simple dislike. Wouldn’t it be better to spend your posts in something technical or in helping people instead of puking bile against someone who really helps and have helped ALL of us here? I’d like to see more respect between us. Among the different opinions I’m sure that if it could be possible Fabio, Ted, John, Tyler and I would spend a day laughing and drinking beer. So don’t look at him like the bad angry guy, like me he doesn’t speak English perfectly so he might sound differently from what he intended to sound. Peace.
If you were trying to subtlely refer to myself there then it wasn't very subtle I'm afraid. I'll take the potential "making an ass out of you and me comments" by assuming you were referring to myself, as I have 134 posts in 8 years...

If you look, Fabio's comment was made before any of my recent comments, and after my leaving this thread alone for a while because I had lost interest in the topic and was instead enjoying watching my C8.

A lot of the posts you refer to are directed at people who have already tried to discredit others in here and is not simply "puking bile" for the hell of it.

How a comment can be made with regards to my English, considering I was born and raised in England is frankly baffling. I mean everything I say, I'm not one for beating around the metaphorical bush.

You also referred to the "never happy" guy, which again I'm guessing is another (not so) subtle reference to myself. I'm actually very happy, I just think that forcing something down someone's throat bears a lack of professionalism and isn't needed in this field, the same as it isn't in religion or choice of diet, etc.

With that said, I'll throw myself and my imperfect English out the door. Peace.
Lol your post made me smile, sincerely, not in the negative interpretation one could make.
I’ll try to explain better because you mixed up things a bit. I was referring at you when I said that I don’t like when someone try to diminish the credibility of people I consider friends and/or deserving of respect. I was NOT referring at you when I talked about speaking English correctly, it was referred to myself and Ted. The “never happy” guy was again referred to myself.
So once again, I’m sorry for MY poor English and I’m sorry if you felt offended. I was referring at you only when I asked more respect for people like Ted who can surely teach us all something and has helped us to have a better (but still far from good) CalMAN LUT correction.

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post #2582 of 2686 Old 01-11-2019, 02:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Noloveformac View Post
Let's hope the Lightspace talk is eradicated from your new thread. In my opinion jrref, you should also stipulate at the beginning of the thread that no Lightspace talk is welcomed. The thread should be entirely about LG's and Calman's 2019 calibration, good OR bad. Talk of Lightspace trying 'hack' the LG's system does not belong here otherwise it becomes convoluted. The Lightspace people can start another thread titled "hacking LG 2019 tv with Lightspace" and let them converse as much as they want in there.
Why? This thread is for general LG oled calibration and this means that any question that is related to the best possible calibration fits here and if that includes a combination of 2 programs to achieve that then its ok.
If it was only for Calman the please the operator can request a title change to Calman Oled Calibration.
If i misunderstood something please correct me.
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post #2583 of 2686 Old 01-11-2019, 06:28 AM
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Could someone show me his Greyscale/Gamut calibration results of his LG C8 in HDR Technicolor (or other) mode?

I manage to force the display in HDR (using my HDFury and my TPG) but I get really strange results...
So I would like to have a kind of "reference" to refine my software/hardware settings.

Thank you in advance

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post #2584 of 2686 Old 01-11-2019, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
If you see to the animated picture of dE report I posted, there is a difference in colors when you send YCbCr vs. RGB-Video input signal, so the same will happen if you use internal or external RGB-Video as patch generator but you watch YCbCr content. (When you will use YCbCr patches and watch YCbCr content, there will be more accurate solution)
I already understand all of that. But you have not addressed anything I said

If I heard it correctly ... it simulates the same exact same rounding errors that would be in the pipeline when it's a YCrCb input over HDMI.

That is what Neil said in the video that was posted above.

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To the PDF, it says that there no errors from conversions (of pattern generator as a feature) because the generator will take RGB triplet command from CalMAN and generate an RGB triplet patch.
And Neil said, in the video that was posted above, it will generate an RGB triplet patch which also adds the rounding errors that would have been present in the signal, if the same patch had been coming from the HDMI signal chain.

I think perhaps you have assumed that the RGB patch will be pure and perfect, and so would not be the same because it would not have those slight differences.

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This fact is not related with the problem of difference handling YCbCr from RGB-Video input signal.
I know.

Where there is a conflict between these two things:
  • that PDF which didn't come from LG's website and doesn't have anyone's name on, and
  • what Neil says,

I will choose to believe Neil .

This doesn't mean I don't like the PDF, it is excellent information on the whole.

This is only the first week of this new TV and I'm sure that it will become clear over time. It is too soon to be sure of this.
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post #2585 of 2686 Old 01-11-2019, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
That is what Neil said in the video that was posted above.
I will post the measurements when the displays will be public available, and you will see the exact same difference.

The offset Neil talking about has to do with only RGB space roundings, and the fact that converting 8bit to real 10-bit value is not just a 8-bit value x 4 calculation. The offset he is talking about its for RGB space inaccuracies from video processing to the TV internally, where an offset will be added.

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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
I know.

Where there is a conflict between these two things:
  • that PDF which didn't come from LG's website and doesn't have anyone's name on, and
  • what Neil says,
I will choose to believe Neil.

This doesn't mean I don't like the PDF, it is excellent information on the whole.

This is only the first week of this new TV and I'm sure that it will become clear over time. It is too soon to be sure of this.
The PDF document I posted its been written by Neil and released to press/calibrators/companies etc.

You will never see it to any LG site, its for press only.
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post #2586 of 2686 Old 01-11-2019, 02:26 PM
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Exactly, the errors that Neil is talking about in the video are related to the TV pipeline, LG engineers added a math formula to calculate the correct triplets to display to taking in account the entire TV pipeline which is good. So the results should be the same that a bit accurate external TPG would display outputting in RGB color space.
Errors generated from the conversion RGB YCbCr will still be there. But don’t worry, it’s an average 0.3/0.4 dE.
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post #2587 of 2686 Old 01-11-2019, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr ShagoY View Post
Could someone show me his Greyscale/Gamut calibration results of his LG C8 in HDR Technicolor (or other) mode?



I manage to force the display in HDR (using my HDFury and my TPG) but I get really strange results...

So I would like to have a kind of "reference" to refine my software/hardware settings.



Thank you in advance






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post #2588 of 2686 Old 01-12-2019, 06:37 AM
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Thank you! Besides, it's with a videoforge pro, I couldn't have hoped for better

On the other hand, the grayscale/colorcheck looks really good, can you confirm that it comes from the non-calibrated movie mode?

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post #2589 of 2686 Old 01-12-2019, 06:57 AM
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I am having black crush issue with auto calibration. Even after adjusting 2.3 to compensate during autocal, dark scenes are still extremely crush on my panel.


Is it recommended to adjust brightness after autocal is finished, or should I be doing something else to compensate?




Edit: Redid the calibration on ISF Dark mode and spent extra time manually calibrating the low end after the gray point auto calibration finished. The black clipping has disappeared and the results are much better.
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post #2590 of 2686 Old 01-12-2019, 07:15 AM
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Having to change calibrations for different cable/sat programming

I've had my LG 65C8 since early December and am very happy with it. Picture quality is outstanding and I have experienced non of the issues discussed from time to time. I've calibrated the various video modes to my liking and settings are similar to those used by others on this forum. My most used mode is Technicolor Expert and Cinema Home.

My settings are consistent with live programming like news, morning "Today" shows, and most live broadcasts. However, on network drama shows, which we watch a lot, some are presented without any setting changes while others are presented very dark. With these, I have to tweak my settings to get an acceptable picture. Brightness being the one needing the most change. If I am set at 50 nominally, some of these programs have to be set at 60+ to look right. I usually watch non-live cable programming in either Cinema Home or Tech Expert and both have this phenomenon.

So, is this a normal thing? Does network programming vary that much from one show to another? My streaming programming like Netflix and Prime don't seem to have this issue. (My wife gets a little miffed when I have to change settings to watch certain drama programs like S.W.A.T., Blue Bloods, Seal Team and some others)
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post #2591 of 2686 Old 01-12-2019, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by rkammer View Post
I've had my LG 65C8 since early December and am very happy with it. Picture quality is outstanding and I have experienced non of the issues discussed from time to time. I've calibrated the various video modes to my liking and settings are similar to those used by others on this forum. My most used mode is Technicolor Expert and Cinema Home.

My settings are consistent with live programming like news, morning "Today" shows, and most live broadcasts. However, on network drama shows, which we watch a lot, some are presented without any setting changes while others are presented very dark. With these, I have to tweak my settings to get an acceptable picture. Brightness being the one needing the most change. If I am set at 50 nominally, some of these programs have to be set at 60+ to look right. I usually watch non-live cable programming in either Cinema Home or Tech Expert and both have this phenomenon.

So, is this a normal thing? Does network programming vary that much from one show to another? My streaming programming like Netflix and Prime don't seem to have this issue. (My wife gets a little miffed when I have to change settings to watch certain drama programs like S.W.A.T., Blue Bloods, Seal Team and some others)
It's normal.

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post #2592 of 2686 Old 01-12-2019, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr ShagoY View Post
Thank you! Besides, it's with a videoforge pro, I couldn't have hoped for better



On the other hand, the grayscale/colorcheck looks really good, can you confirm that it comes from the non-calibrated movie mode?


I don't quite understand what you mean? That was an autocal result from technicolor hdr profile?


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post #2593 of 2686 Old 01-13-2019, 11:05 AM
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I've been messing around with auto calibration the last few days now that my panel has been warmed in. I have been calibrating both game mode and ISF Expert Dark.

I have a C6 colorimeter, Videoforge pro, and an i1 Basic Pro 2.

I do the following for auto calibration:
  1. Create a meter profile using the i1 Basic Pro 2 and C6 using the WOLED 2018 meter mode
  2. Set the Videoforge Pro to RGB Limited 10-bit mode. (An earlier post made it seem like there is a bug in ycbcr pattern generation)
  3. Set up the LG SDR workflow with D65, Power 2.4, 10% window, DE2000_JNDab, and 30,5,15 pattern insertion.
  4. Run the grayscale calibration with 26 points 16-255. (I've tried this with both 0.5 and 0.01 DE)
  5. Run the Matrix 3d LUT measurement. (Earlier posts indicated running the other LUTs may introduce banding.)
  6. Verify the measurements.
When I calibrate both of the above modes the results seem rather dull as if there was a grey filter placed on top of everything. Has anyone run into something like this or am I just so used to things looking wrong that the colors just seem washed out?


If I calibrate 2pt manually on the expert dark mode, I don't see the issue, however this theoretically should be much less accurate than doing the auto calibration.
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post #2594 of 2686 Old 01-13-2019, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Wjboshart View Post
I don't quite understand what you mean? That was an autocal result from technicolor hdr profile?
Sorry if I'm not understandable, English is not my native language

But you answer my question!
Your results seemed to be "smooth" and as I was asking for a "pre-calibration" result to use it as a "standard" for my HDR tests.

So do you have "pre-calibration" screenshots (whatever the mode used) ?

Thanks.

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post #2595 of 2686 Old 01-13-2019, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr ShagoY View Post
Sorry if I'm not understandable, English is not my native language



But you answer my question!

Your results seemed to be "smooth" and as I was asking for a "pre-calibration" result to use it as a "standard" for my HDR tests.



So do you have "pre-calibration" screenshots (whatever the mode used) ?



Thanks.


I don't have pre cal pictures. From my memory, out of the box hdr presets are relatively close to accurate


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post #2596 of 2686 Old 01-13-2019, 02:36 PM
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Thanks to Ted Aspiotis and Steve Shaw, I have finally solved the problem. Apparently using MobileForge or LS Connect on a table or phone does not privide bit-perfect patterns to a device (tv or monitor). So I purchased a Firestick 4K and problem solved!
Yes, I realize that my i1d probe isnt the most accurate measurement tool but I have finally achieved "Poor Man's Nirvana". Much, much thanks to Ted, Steve and the genious behind Lightspace!
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post #2597 of 2686 Old 01-13-2019, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by MrRobotoPlus View Post
I tried to calibrate my 2017 Oled to Technicolor WP and yes it is very green. D-Nice WP is much better to my eyes. I also calibrate HDR to D-Nice WP and, strangely, I and up with the same 2 point WP values as SDR. Content looks much better. Batman vs Supermen, at the end of the movie, the funeral scene is fantastic. The sky and skintones are so much realistic.
What is D nice WP, may I ask?

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post #2598 of 2686 Old 01-13-2019, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Rob Loney View Post
Thanks to Ted Aspiotis and Steve Shaw, I have finally solved the problem. Apparently using MobileForge or LS Connect on a table or phone does not privide bit-perfect patterns to a device (tv or monitor). So I purchased a Firestick 4K and problem solved!
Yes, I realize that my i1d probe isnt the most accurate measurement tool but I have finally achieved "Poor Man's Nirvana". Much, much thanks to Ted, Steve and the genious behind Lightspace!


Hi glad that you was able to achieve these results. When you are using and i1Disay Pro without and spectrometer you should definitely use the RAW profile instead of the OLED one. The OLED profile was created for RGB OLED panels and not for consumer OLED with white subpixel.

Just redo what you was told with the RAW profile and you're good
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post #2599 of 2686 Old 01-14-2019, 05:02 AM
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What is D nice WP, may I ask?

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post #2600 of 2686 Old 01-14-2019, 10:28 AM
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Hi glad that you was able to achieve these results. When you are using and i1Disay Pro without and spectrometer you should definitely use the RAW profile instead of the OLED one. The OLED profile was created for RGB OLED panels and not for consumer OLED with white subpixel.

Just redo what you was told with the RAW profile and you're good
If I am using an C6 hdr 2000 and Firestick with mobile forge would you also say I should use the raw profile and not the LG OLED profile in the meter drop down box.

And also should I use the RGB output or the YCbCr output from the Firestick.
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post #2601 of 2686 Old 01-14-2019, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by rswood View Post
If I am using an C6 hdr 2000 and Firestick with mobile forge would you also say I should use the raw profile and not the LG OLED profile in the meter drop down box.



And also should I use the RGB output or the YCbCr output from the Firestick.


The profile that the C6 meter provide is pretty good so you should definitely use that one. Therefore you don't have the ability to use the RAW profile because that's only available for the i1Pro.

In a ideal world I would always use YCbCr color space check out the thread from Miki about the accuracy test of external TPG but as far as I can remember the fire TV stick is bit perfect.

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post #2602 of 2686 Old 01-14-2019, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by BlackJoker View Post
The profile that the C6 meter provide is pretty good so you should definitely use that one. Therefore you don't have the ability to use the RAW profile because that's only available for the i1Pro.

In a ideal world I would always use YCbCr color space check out the thread from Miki about the accuracy test of external TPG but as far as I can remember the fire TV stick is bit perfect.
Thanks for your help.
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post #2603 of 2686 Old 01-14-2019, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by BlackJoker View Post
In a ideal world I would always use YCbCr color space check out the thread from Miki about the accuracy test of external TPG
My thread about cheap TPG accuracy , this is the one Black Joker was referring to in his post.

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but as far as I can remember the fire TV stick 2K is bit perfect.
@rswood Yes, as Black Joker said, fireTV stick is bit accurate in RGB color space which is also the only color space it uses. That doesn’t mean that Mobileforge is bit accurate with fireTV stick 2K, but you’ll read more about it on the thread linked above.
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post #2604 of 2686 Old 01-14-2019, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
My thread about cheap TPG accuracy , this is the one Black Joker was referring to in his post.


@rswood Yes, as Black Joker said, fireTV stick is bit accurate in RGB color space which is also the only color space it uses. That doesn’t mean that Mobileforge is bit accurate with fireTV stick 2K, but you’ll read more about it on the thread linked above.
Thanks for your response, the 4k firestick can output YCbCr as well as RGB. You have to go into the menu to force the RGB output.
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post #2605 of 2686 Old 01-14-2019, 10:21 PM
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Unfortunately, I only tested the 2K version. Amazon is not selling the 4K version in my country yet. But @baller02 got it and did some accuracy test. I’m sure he will jump in soon and tell you about his findings.

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post #2606 of 2686 Old 01-14-2019, 10:26 PM
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Hello to all. I've read through this thread, but I'm way behind you guys. I have a new 65C8 that I am looking to calibrate using either internal or external 3D LUTs (haven't decided yet). This is my first new TV since purchasing a Kuro 11 years ago, which I calibrated using an external eecolor 3D LUT. The first thing I notice is there are a number of different video or play modes. Is there any advantage to calibrating each of these individually? It seems using CM autocal you end up with basically the same 3D LUT for each PM, so doesn't make sense to go through the trouble. Am I right or am I missing something here? Thanks for any feedback.
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post #2607 of 2686 Old 01-15-2019, 07:09 AM - Thread Starter
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After reading the LG autocal release notes that Tedd posted the other day, I was thinking "again", now that a lot of the CM autocal dust has settled, given that we know there are panel to panel variations, if you calibrate your LG manually, you are making adjustments based on the factory LUTs which may not be optimal for your specific panel vs making 1D and 3D or matrix LUTs from "scratch" for your specific panel. One would believe, assuming CM creates the LUTs properly, ( we know the 1D and the Matrix work fine right now ), and you use Autocal correctly, and you have "sufficient" equipment, that you would always get a better result with autocal for sets that may be out of spec from the factory or have more panel variation.

Case in point, although the new Sony's have CMS controls, I still see some colors with more than minimal luminance errors no matter what I do to try and correct it. I've spoken to DeWayne about this a while back and "basically" there is no way to correct some of these CMS issues with the user controls. I sometimes see the same when manually calibrating a LG BUT on my own sets, re-creating the LUT using Autocal fixes most of the problems. That said, I'm starting to re-think using CM Autocal with the manual tweak, for customers even though there is no and may never be a backup process since on some sets, you can get a better result depending on your panel.

The sets i'm referring to are not defective, just that some are better than other's and autocal can correct the less than optimal sets to be optimal in my opinion.

Any thoughts?
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post #2608 of 2686 Old 01-15-2019, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gr8sound View Post
It seems using CM autocal you end up with basically the same 3D LUT for each PM, so doesn't make sense to go through the trouble. Am I right or am I missing something here? Thanks for any feedback.
Hiya and welcome! Initially I thought that you thought all the modes would share the same 1D and 3D LUTs but now I believe you don't think that. You are just saying that you'd "end up" with the same LUTs. Yes you would if you used the same settings - but you don't have to. You can have different white points, gamma 2.4 or 2.2, different target luminance (100nits, 180nits) etc. So there is plenty of scope for using the multiple modes for different purposes.

@jrref - agree with your post. It's very pleasing to be able to create a result of such high quality so (relatively) easily.
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post #2609 of 2686 Old 01-15-2019, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
After reading the LG autocal release notes that Tedd posted the other day, I was thinking "again", now that a lot of the CM autocal dust has settled, given that we know there are panel to panel variations, if you calibrate your LG manually, you are making adjustments based on the factory LUTs which may not be optimal for your specific panel vs making 1D and 3D or matrix LUTs from "scratch" for your specific panel. One would believe, assuming CM creates the LUTs properly, ( we know the 1D and the Matrix work fine right now ), and you use Autocal correctly, and you have "sufficient" equipment, that you would always get a better result with autocal for sets that may be out of spec from the factory or have more panel variation.

Case in point, although the new Sony's have CMS controls, I still see some colors with more than minimal luminance errors no matter what I do to try and correct it. I've spoken to DeWayne about this a while back and "basically" there is no way to correct some of these CMS issues with the user controls. I sometimes see the same when manually calibrating a LG BUT on my own sets, re-creating the LUT using Autocal fixes most of the problems. That said, I'm starting to re-think using CM Autocal with the manual tweak, for customers even though there is no and may never be a backup process since on some sets, you can get a better result depending on your panel.

The sets i'm referring to are not defective, just that some are better than other's and autocal can correct the less than optimal sets to be optimal in my opinion.

Any thoughts?
I got some many thoughts on that subject that I could fill a book in one day. But not today 😄

Manual calibration as a correction of the factory LUT vs thousand points LUT is a no match but, as you said, it all depends on what tools are being used, software included. That is the key, what probes LG used to make its factory LUT, how may points have been measured, if and what kind of correction has been used to eventually correct panel to panel variation and which software has been used? I am a really curious dude 🙂
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post #2610 of 2686 Old 01-15-2019, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
Unfortunately, I only tested the 2K version. Amazon is not selling the 4K version in my country yet. But @baller02 got it and did some accuracy test. I’m sure he will jump in soon and tell you about his findings.
http://01900888.com/forum/139-display-calibration/3023002-cheap-test-pattern-generators-accuracy-thread.html

#140
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