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post #1 of 35 Old 05-04-2018, 04:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Bias lighting with black wall?

I have just ordered a Medialight quad bias Light for my Sony A1 OLED as I have been getting eye strain from viewing in my theater room.

All the walls are covered with silk/viscose velvet black (Devore) fabric as this room is used for front projection so light reflections are being kept to a minimum.

My projection screen drops down in front of the TV & I know it’s not required to treat the rear wall but I thought it looked better & I also raise the screen when viewing 2.39 movies to crop the bottom black bar off the screen but I get a little light bleed on the back wall which was distracting in dark scenes of movies so the black fabric stops this.

Anyway while I am waiting for my Medialight to be delivered I have installed some LED strip lighting I had laying around as a test to see what it looks like & I think the fabric is not reflecting enough light for the bias light to be effective.

I have included an image with of what this looks like when all the lights are off in the room with just the LED strip on & then with the TV & LED strip on.

Image looks strange as the fabric has a pile & depending on the angle you are viewing from it looks uneven.

What do you guys think? Will I need to put something on the back wall that is white or light gray around the edge of the TV to reflect light?
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post #2 of 35 Old 05-04-2018, 04:40 PM
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A black surface looks that way because it is not reflecting light. I would suggest a medium, neutral, matte, gray surface. The goal is reflected illumination that is perceived as 10% or less of the peak white produced by the TV after it is calibrated for dark room viewing. The older SMPTE recommendation was 10% of peak white. The recently revised SMPTE standard is 5 nits (candellas per square meter) +/- 0.5 nits. This is not a perceptual percentage but must be measured with a spot luminance meter or spectroradiometer.

The uniform aesthetic appearance of the illumination is not important for achieving the technical benefits of bias lighting. Viewer focus should be on the program being displayed on the TV rather than the surround behind. However, some people like to achieve the uniform appearance out of a sense of aesthetic.

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post #3 of 35 Old 05-04-2018, 06:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Looks like I will have to create something I can attach to the wall then. I will have a think.
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post #4 of 35 Old 05-04-2018, 08:11 PM
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Looks like I will have to create something I can attach to the wall then. I will have a think.
Gray acoustic panels are a nice option.
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post #5 of 35 Old 05-07-2018, 01:06 AM - Thread Starter
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A black surface looks that way because it is not reflecting light. I would suggest a medium, neutral, matte, gray surface. The goal is reflected illumination that is perceived as 10% or less of the peak white produced by the TV after it is calibrated for dark room viewing. The older SMPTE recommendation was 10% of peak white. The recently revised SMPTE standard is 5 nits (candellas per square meter) +/- 0.5 nits. This is not a perceptual percentage but must be measured with a spot luminance meter or spectroradiometer.

The uniform aesthetic appearance of the illumination is not important for achieving the technical benefits of bias lighting. Viewer focus should be on the program being displayed on the TV rather than the surround behind. However, some people like to achieve the uniform appearance out of a sense of aesthetic.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
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Would I be able to check the reflected illumination luminance using my i1Pro?

I have the ambient light diffusion filter, how would I go about preforming this check with the meter?
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post #6 of 35 Old 05-07-2018, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
Would I be able to check the reflected illumination luminance using my i1Pro?

I have the ambient light diffusion filter, how would I go about preforming this check with the meter?
Use CalMAN just as though you were going to take readings of your PJ. I'm not sure you'd want the diffuser in this case, but you can try it both ways to be sure. Start CalMAN, and manually take a reading of one of the points on a grayscale page. You're looking for the actual numbers, so don't pay too much attention to the graphs. Make sure your Sony is off or showing a black screen so it doesn't skew the measurement.
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post #7 of 35 Old 05-07-2018, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
Would I be able to check the reflected illumination luminance using my i1Pro?

I have the ambient light diffusion filter, how would I go about preforming this check with the meter?
Use the light diffusor and in Calman use Ambient Light Diffuser as Meter Mode. Then go in Calman Dynamic Range page and make your measurements pointing the meter at the wall up to 5nits.
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post #8 of 35 Old 05-07-2018, 01:03 PM
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Would I be able to check the reflected illumination luminance using my i1Pro?

I have the ambient light diffusion filter, how would I go about preforming this check with the meter?
No filter necessary. It's no different than measuring the reflected light from a projection screen with your meter.
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post #9 of 35 Old 05-07-2018, 09:33 PM - Thread Starter
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So just set the meter up pointing at the screen?

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post #10 of 35 Old 05-07-2018, 09:39 PM
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So just set the meter around a meter or so pointing at the screen?
Should be fine.
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post #11 of 35 Old 05-07-2018, 11:21 PM
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Quote:
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So just set the meter around a meter or so pointing at the screen?
Wouldn't that give you a reading that represents the weighted average between the black screen and the backlight? The measured luminance would be a lot lower than if you measure only the backlight area.
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post #12 of 35 Old 05-08-2018, 01:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Wouldn't that give you a reading that represents the weighted average between the black screen and the backlight? The measured luminance would be a lot lower than if you measure only the backlight area.
I guess because the meter is a one meter or so away from the screen the FOV of the meter is very wide so it is no only seeing the panel but also the light from the bias light around it? Just a guess.

I am going to calibrate my TV once I have the light & wall installed/treated.

What do you guys calibrate display brightness to in a bat cave? Still 100 nits for SDR? No idea where to be for HDR.
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post #13 of 35 Old 05-08-2018, 06:21 AM
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I guess because the meter is a one meter or so away from the screen the FOV of the meter is very wide so it is no only seeing the panel but also the light from the bias light around it? Just a guess.
According to this paper from Spectracal, the Full Width Half Max of the i1Pro is only 8 degrees, which translates to about 5" at 1 m:
http://www.spectracal.com/Documents/...%20Article.pdf

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What do you guys calibrate display brightness to in a bat cave? Still 100 nits for SDR? No idea where to be for HDR.
For projectors in a bat cave people usually aim for 50 nits. for SDR, and about 25 nits for HDR diffuse white. Not sure if the same applies for direct view TVs.
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post #14 of 35 Old 05-08-2018, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
I guess because the meter is a one meter or so away from the screen the FOV of the meter is very wide so it is no only seeing the panel but also the light from the bias light around it? Just a guess.

I am going to calibrate my TV once I have the light & wall installed/treated.

What do you guys calibrate display brightness to in a bat cave? Still 100 nits for SDR? No idea where to be for HDR.
You really can't calibrate brightness for HDR - if you want accuracy - like you can for HDR. HDR's PQ luminance curve is absolute, so the top of the curve is 10K nits, period. Now, HDR's max luminance for 'diffuse' white (say like a white wall) is 100 nits. The remaining luminance is reserved for highlights. The display has to tonemap those image luminances and colors outside its envelope down into what it can do. The tone mapping is based upon the default values for contrast, brightness, and gamma that it has in its HDR mode, so you really don't want to adjust those. You can do grayscale (in most cases a 2-point is sufficient), and basic color and tint adjustments, with the proper patterns.

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post #15 of 35 Old 05-08-2018, 09:31 AM
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Ok, this disussion got off the rails somehow. We were originally discussing bias lighting a black wall. Then measuring the bias light reflection with a meter, not the screen.

The meter needs to be pointed at the brightest portion of the wall behind the TV being illuminated with the bias light. The level of that ambient illumination being reflected should be adjusted to 5 nits in order to comply with the recent SMPTE standard specification for reference viewing environment conditions. This is after the display itself is calibrated for dark room viewing.
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post #16 of 35 Old 05-08-2018, 10:24 AM
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IMO, bias lighting makes things worse when you have a display that looks great in the dark. It makes my OLEDs look worse, and made my 940E look worse. I loved it in the earlier plasma days. It especially sucks with HDR content on screen.
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post #17 of 35 Old 05-08-2018, 11:26 AM
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IMO, bias lighting makes things worse when you have a display that looks great in the dark. It makes my OLEDs look worse, and made my 940E look worse. I loved it in the earlier plasma days. It especially sucks with HDR content on screen.
All video displays look their best in the dark. Was your bias lighting adjusted too bright? Some individuals are less sensitive to eye strain. The vast majority of international motion imaging experts and standards bodies continue to specify it's use in reference viewing environments. Emulating professional best practices will still be the wisest approach when designing systems for the vast majority of viewers desiring image fidelity and authentic video program reproduction.

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post #18 of 35 Old 05-08-2018, 11:58 AM
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The meter needs to be pointed at the brightest portion of the wall behind the TV being illuminated with the bias light.
Presumably this supersedes post 10 which said to point at the screen.
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post #19 of 35 Old 05-08-2018, 12:21 PM
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Presumably this supersedes post 10 which said to point at the screen.
Yes. That response of mine was in haste. I read "screen" but thought "wall." It goes back to the principle discussed that measuring the bias lighting reflection on the wall with his meter is similar to measuring a projected image on a screen.
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post #20 of 35 Old 05-23-2018, 05:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Gray acoustic panels are a nice option.
Had a look into acoustic panels but mounting to the wall & having to buy multiples is going to be an issue.

Had an idea of using a grey sheet attached to a frame behind the TV. Like a canvas is stretched over a picture frame if you will.

As I test I very quickly threw up a sheet on the wall to see what this will look like before building the frame & if it produces the effect required.

I have included an image to show you what this will look like. Will this be any good or should I try something else?
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post #21 of 35 Old 05-24-2018, 10:33 AM
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Had a look into acoustic panels but mounting to the wall & having to buy multiples is going to be an issue.

Had an idea of using a grey sheet attached to a frame behind the TV. Like a canvas is stretched over a picture frame if you will.

As I test I very quickly threw up a sheet on the wall to see what this will look like before building the frame & if it produces the effect required.

I have included an image to show you what this will look like. Will this be any good or should I try something else?
It's up to you what will look satsfactory. Neutral gray is the essential element.
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post #22 of 35 Old 05-24-2018, 09:57 PM - Thread Starter
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It's up to you what will look satsfactory. Neutral gray is the essential element.

Was just going to use an AmazonBasics grey flat sheet but I have no way of telling if this is a neutral gray or not.


Whats the best way to achieve this? I presume I can get paint mixed to a certain color/specification & instead of using fabric to cover the frame I could use wood & paint it.


Are there any fabrics I can purchase that are know to be natural grey?
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post #23 of 35 Old 05-24-2018, 10:20 PM
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Was just going to use an AmazonBasics grey flat sheet but I have no way of telling if this is a neutral gray or not.


Whats the best way to achieve this? I presume I can get paint mixed to a certain color/specification & instead of using fabric to cover the frame I could use wood & paint it.


Are there any fabrics I can purchase that are know to be natural grey?
You can get a photo gray card at a camera shop to compare fabric colors. I offer a 10-Step Munsel Neutral Gray sample set in my online store. There are other similar gray samples available on the web such as this one: http://www.dickblick.com/products/g...finder/#photos . I don't know of any specific fabrics that fill the bill. The same gray scale samples could be used to have a paint store scan for reference. There should be a flat, neutral gray sample section in major paint stores that should suffice.
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post #24 of 35 Old 05-25-2018, 05:17 PM - Thread Starter
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You can get a photo gray card at a camera shop to compare fabric colors. I offer a 10-Step Munsel Neutral Gray sample set in my online store. There are other similar gray samples available on the web such as this one: http://www.dickblick.com/products/g...finder/#photos . I don't know of any specific fabrics that fill the bill. The same gray scale samples could be used to have a paint store scan for reference. There should be a flat, neutral gray sample section in major paint stores that should suffice.
What percentage photo gray card is ideal?

Looking online a see a lot of the 18% photo grey cards, are these any good?


http://www.amazon.co.uk/Kaavie-GC-1...ize+grey+cards
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post #25 of 35 Old 05-25-2018, 07:22 PM
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The percent of reflectance is an indication of how dark it will appear. An 18% reflectance is a standard in photography for camera settings. That shade of gray is equivalent to a Munsell matte N5 (on a scale from 0 to 10).

How dark the gray should be depends on your room decore and individual taste. For bias lighting purposes it determines how dim to set the light output. The room will be otherwise lightless when using the bias lighting. The reflected illumination off of the gray surround should be according to video industry standards and best practices, either 10% or less of calibrated peak white on the display, or 5 nits (+/- 0.5) measured with a meter.
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post #26 of 35 Old 05-26-2018, 06:41 PM - Thread Starter
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The percent of reflectance is an indication of how dark it will appear. An 18% reflectance is a standard in photography for camera settings. That shade of gray is equivalent to a Munsell matte N5 (on a scale from 0 to 10).

How dark the gray should be depends on your room decore and individual taste. For bias lighting purposes it determines how dim to set the light output. The room will be otherwise lightless when using the bias lighting. The reflected illumination off of the gray surround should be according to video industry standards and best practices, either 10% or less of calibrated peak white on the display, or 5 nits (+/- 0.5) measured with a meter.
So if I understand correctly the shade of gray can be what suites my preference as long as I can adjust the brightness of the bias light to conform to the reflected illumination requirements?
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post #27 of 35 Old 05-26-2018, 10:43 PM
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So if I understand correctly the shade of gray can be what suites my preference as long as I can adjust the brightness of the bias light to conform to the reflected illumination requirements?
Correct.
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post #28 of 35 Old 07-29-2018, 11:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Just a follow up on how I got on with treating the back wall.


I just covered four peices of 1mm thick M.D.F boards with fabric & mounted them to the rear wall.


The are held together with Velcro which does the job very well.


Here is a picture of what it looks like finished, please excuse my crappy iPhone camera.






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post #29 of 35 Old 07-30-2018, 09:15 AM
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Just a follow up on how I got on with treating the back wall.

I just covered four peices of 1mm thick M.D.F boards with fabric & mounted them to the rear wall.
Hi Adam,

It will be better idea to replace the fabric with a paint-able fabric (like the one they use for paint canvas, it's white) and then paint it with Munsell N5 calibrated paint which is neutral gray with flat spectral response, without having any hue bias.

BTW Blacks paint which is truly black is the Rosco TV black paint, most of normal black paints have blue-ish tint, generally its better to paint Munsell N5 the walls next time, this is what they do in post-production studios.

When you have Neutral Gray area behind your TV (or walls) where the D65 bias light will be reflecting, this will provide more comfort when you will watch movies because it stabilizes the irises. Also it provides a consistent white balance for your eyes, giving a constant reference in the peripheral area around your display, eliminating the negative effects of simultaneous contrast.

Also it will minimize the ''color pollution''of viewing area caused by reflections from chromatic surfaces. When your D65 standard illumination is reflected from colored walls, etc., its color quality changes so it is no longer “standard”.

The application of a neutral gray to chromatic surfaces will eliminate such color pollution by providing spectrally neutral surfaces around the viewing area.

See these posts:

http://01900888.com/forum/139-d...l#post56248518

http://01900888.com/forum/139-d...l#post56553774

http://01900888.com/forum/139-d...l#post56553958

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post #30 of 35 Old 07-30-2018, 06:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi Adam,

It will be better idea to replace the fabric with a paint-able fabric (like the one they use for paint canvas, it's white) and then paint it with Munsell N5 calibrated paint which is neutral gray with flat spectral response, without having any hue bias.

BTW Blacks paint which is truly black is the Rosco TV black paint, most of normal black paints have blue-ish tint, generally its better to paint Munsell N5 the walls next time, this is what they do in post-production studios.

When you have Neutral Gray area behind your TV (or walls) where the D65 bias light will be reflecting, this will provide more comfort when you will watch movies because it stabilizes the irises. Also it provides a consistent white balance for your eyes, giving a constant reference in the peripheral area around your display, eliminating the negative effects of simultaneous contrast.

Also it will minimize the ''color pollution''of viewing area caused by reflections from chromatic surfaces. When your D65 standard illumination is reflected from colored walls, etc., its color quality changes so it is no longer “standard”.

The application of a neutral gray to chromatic surfaces will eliminate such color pollution by providing spectrally neutral surfaces around the viewing area.

See these posts:

http://01900888.com/forum/139-d...l#post56248518

http://01900888.com/forum/139-d...l#post56553774

http://01900888.com/forum/139-d...l#post56553958

The back wall isn't painted black, it is actually fabric also. It's called Silk/Viscose Velvet Black (Devore)


Wow that paint is expensive, $100 for a gallon isn't cheap.
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