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post #301 of 336 Old 12-25-2018, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post
Using S&M disk, I tried to see what is the best sharpness value and found it is "10" before any sign of halos.
Can anyone else try and confirm?
It depends on the display, at least it seems. Partly due to the factory calibration. I did a two point D65 calibration recently, and I can use sharpness at 20 for UHD HDR and 1080p BluRay disc without any halos or any other artifacts.

I just can't except blurring detail that is in the content, it also helps to make sure certain in a scene is distinct.

My display is a 2016 P Series P55-C1

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post #302 of 336 Old 12-26-2018, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob View Post
It depends on the display, at least it seems. Partly due to the factory calibration. I did a two point D65 calibration recently, and I can use sharpness at 20 for UHD HDR and 1080p BluRay disc without any halos or any other artifacts.

I just can't except blurring detail that is in the content, it also helps to make sure certain in a scene is distinct.

My display is a 2016 P Series P55-C1

Sent from my SM-G550T1 using Tapatalk
Of course, it will depend on the display. It may even differ unit to unit of the same model. That's why we have calibration and is unique per unit.
But certain factor may apply globally for a given model. Just wanted to check what others are seeing in PQ in terms of sharpness.
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post #303 of 336 Old 12-26-2018, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post
Of course, it will depend on the display. It may even differ unit to unit of the same model. That's why we have calibration and is unique per unit.
But certain factor may apply globally for a given model. Just wanted to check what others are seeing in PQ in terms of sharpness.
I doubt the P Series and Quantum sharpness processing is different. The headroom, I think is tied to color temperature, and gamma.

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post #304 of 336 Old 12-28-2018, 11:43 PM
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If I buy a $200 calibration thingy and do some research, how close can I get the TV to a professionally calibrated picture?
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post #305 of 336 Old 12-29-2018, 11:12 AM
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If I buy a $200 calibration thingy and do some research, how close can I get the TV to a professionally calibrated picture?
Close to $200..

Okay, jokes apart, but it all depends on how much appetite and patience you have.
And what is included in this $200 calibration thingy? You will barely get a meter for $200.
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post #306 of 336 Old 12-29-2018, 11:26 AM
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i1D3 was mentioned, but maybe not the best option for HDR calibration.

Looks like calman home enthusiast is another $400.

My thought process here is that a good calibration is probably $300-$500 and what's another few hundred bucks and some time spent learning? Especially if calibrations require tuning every so often? I also have desktop monitors that could benefit from some calibration as well.

Just wondering if I pick up the software, meter and start educating myself, is it possible to get a pretty good picture on a budget of say, $800?
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post #307 of 336 Old 12-29-2018, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by ApexAZ View Post
i1D3 was mentioned, but maybe not the best option for HDR calibration.

Looks like calman home enthusiast is another $400.

My thought process here is that a good calibration is probably $300-$500 and what's another few hundred bucks and some time spent learning? Especially if calibrations require tuning every so often? I also have desktop monitors that could benefit from some calibration as well.

Just wondering if I pick up the software, meter and start educating myself, is it possible to get a pretty good picture on a budget of say, $800?
If you are ready to learn, then you can do it only with the meter cost. Just use HCFR.
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post #308 of 336 Old 12-31-2018, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by skschatzman View Post
I will have to test using gain to lower the hump on the high end. Be careful though as these displays can produce a peak brightness above 2000nits(I've seen some calibrators report over 2500nits) and the 2017+ i1D3 meters(C6 HDR2000 as well) are only certified to be accurate up to 2000nits. This may be the reason it looks so off on the higher end.
Planning to pick this up. Hope this will work up to 2000nits

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...splay_Pro.html

Edit: NVM. Just found out only the OEM version has the extended range. Not these retail ones.

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post #309 of 336 Old 01-03-2019, 05:32 AM
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Originally Posted by ApexAZ View Post
If I buy a $200 calibration thingy and do some research, how close can I get the TV to a professionally calibrated picture?
Hi, If you decide to get your own meter and start the journey, the ideal meter to get is the X-Rite i1Display PRO and if you want to improve it more, you can add a spectrophotometer (like i1PRO2, as future step of color accuracy upgrade) to use it for creating a unique meter correction table for each of your displays/projectors, to improve your colorimeter color accuracy. To see why you need both or a lot of other details generally about these 2 meters see there. But starting from the colorimeter (i1Display PRO) is a proper and ideal start for all, for the budget you have to spend.

The i1Display PRO Retail has certified to measure up to 1000nits, while the i1Display PRO OEM has certified to measure up to 2000 nits.

About that peak output difference, it doesn't mean that the Retail version will stop the readings at 1000 nits; it can read higher; beyond 2000 nits, but X-Rite is not certify/check that the measurement you will see it will be accurate.

Any calibration software for manual calibration using normal OSD menus can provide you the exact the same end results, since its a graphical presentation of what your meter is reading. So when you perform manual cal, whatever software you will use, the end results will be the same, the interface is different only.

About calibration software there free solutions, you can download:

1) HCFR from here with support forum topic: HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software

2) The Free DPS version of LightSpace CMS can be used also with an i1Display PRO meter, there available to read various guides on the Light Illusion website.

The specific guide for use with LightSpace DPS is here.

But there is a lot of potentially useful/interesting info in the various guides on the website also.

Support forum topic: Free LightSpace DPS - Manual Display Calibration

There is a HCFR tutorial from a forum member here: The certainly not complete user guide to get to know and calibrate your TV

After selecting your calibration software, you have to find a calibration disk which had been created specifically for each software because there differences between calibration disk that can affect the final result when you will use not proper patterns for each measurement run.

You will playback the calibration disk from the source you use to playback your movies, to include to the adjustments you will make any player internal processing/colorspace conversions inaccuracies, to have your full video chain calibrated.

You will need to get some patterns for measurements for SDR (REC.709) and for HDR10 (REC.2020).

For improve your calibration knowledge, here are some useful links generally for calibration:

http://www.tlvexp.ca/

Video Calibration From The Inside - Volume I - 2nd Edition-1

http://chromapure.com/demos.asp

http://chromapure.com/ChromaPureManual.pdf

http://www.spectracal.com/downloads/...n%20How-To.pdf

http://calman.spectracal.com/user-guides.html

http://calman.spectracal.com/webinars.html

http://www.youtube.com/user/SpectraCal

http://lightillusion.com/why_calibrate.html

http://lightillusion.com/delta-e.html

http://lightillusion.com/manual_cali...ots_guide.html
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post #310 of 336 Old 01-03-2019, 05:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ApexAZ View Post
If I buy a $200 calibration thingy and do some research, how close can I get the TV to a professionally calibrated picture?
See this thread also: http://01900888.com/forum/139-d...l#post55567396

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post #311 of 336 Old 01-04-2019, 01:41 PM
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HDR10 gain calibration, attempt 2

I've made a second attempt a HDR10 calibration, this time using Mehanik's HDR10 calibration patterns (0%-100% white, 10% windows). So far I've only run though a grey scale measurement and gain correction.
Out of the box my PQ65 has too little red so I adjusted the gain setting to correct this. I itteratively correcte with the 100%, then 80%, then 70% white patterns until I minimized RGB errors at the high luminance levels.
Before gain adjustments my meter measured a peak luminace of 2413.7 cd/m2 and a deltaE of 9.2 at 95% white.
After gain calibration the luminance decreased to 2233.7.6 cd/m2 and a deltaE of 1.3 at 95% white.
Attached are plots of the before and after RGB and deltaE curves from HCFR.

My settings, after calibratin are below. The gain adjuments follow the same general trend as skschatzman's .

Post gain correction the RGB curves are better behaved from 40% white and up, with the deltaE error decreasing above 40%.

Vizio PQ65-F1 / Firmware v1.1.17.1

X-Rite i1Display Pro OEM (5" distance) Tripod Mounted
Mehanik HDR10 calibration and test patterns set via Oppo UDP-203
HCFR (v3.5.1.4)

==={GLOBAL}===
Auto Brightness Control: Off
Brightness: 50
Contrast: 50
Color: 50
Tint: 0
Sharpness: 0
Color temperature: Normal*
Black Detail: Off
Active Full Array: Low
Reduce Judder: 0
Reduce Motion Blur: 0
Clear Action: Off
Reduce Signal Noise: Off
Reduce Block Noise: Off
Game Low Latency: Off
Film Mode: On
Color Space: Auto
Gamma: 2.2

==={HDR10/HLG}===
Colorspace Target: BT.2020 HDR
Gamma Formula: ST 2084 HDR(PQ)

Picture Mode: Nighttime (custom)
Active Full Array: Medium
Backlight: 50

White Balance: R,G,B
Offset: 0,0,0
Gain: 9,-23,-29

Results of my 1st attempt to gain correct HDR10 are below for posterity.

-phil


Spoiler!
Attached Thumbnails
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Name:	Gain corrected RGB and deltaE.jpg
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Last edited by PhilB; 01-15-2019 at 10:00 AM. Reason: reran greyscale calibration with 10% windows
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post #312 of 336 Old 01-05-2019, 07:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
White Balance: R,G,B

Offset: 0,0,0

Gain: 7,-39,-71
HDR10 requires 10% windows not 5%. The TV can output well over 2000 peak luminance. The demo files are not intended to be used for an actual calibration. I already tested them and I get completely different readings vs the paid package. It isn't expensive.

What meter profile are you using? The gain adjustment looks extreme. Any time you see adjustments go beyond 50 then there is a large possibility something is wrong with the calibration configuration.

Last edited by skschatzman; 01-05-2019 at 07:15 AM.
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post #313 of 336 Old 01-05-2019, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skschatzman View Post
HDR10 requires 10% windows not 5%. The TV can output well over 2000 peak luminance. The demo files are not intended to be used for an actual calibration. I already tested them and I get completely different readings vs the paid package. It isn't expensive.
My long term plan is to buy the full DVS suite once the DV patterns are available, hoping there's a discount bundle with HDR10 and DV. I was disappointed to see that the windows were 5%, but that's what I had to work with so I thought I'd give it a shot to familiarize myself with the process. Any idea why you got a discrepancy between the demo patterns and the full relesase?

Quote:
Originally Posted by skschatzman View Post
What meter profile are you using? The gain adjustment looks extreme. Any time you see adjustments go beyond 50 then there is a large possibility something is wrong with the calibration configuration.
Going by memory (the PC I have HCFR on is at the office, and I'm not) it is in the non-refresh display profile.

-phil

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post #314 of 336 Old 01-10-2019, 04:59 AM
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Does anyone know if Vizio will be fixing the issues with Offset (in the 2 point WB) in future FW updates?
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post #315 of 336 Old 01-10-2019, 12:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Does anyone know if Vizio will be fixing the issues with Offset (in the 2 point WB) in future FW updates?
Highly doubtful. It is broken on all 2016+ Vizio models and they haven't made any attempt to fix it.
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post #316 of 336 Old 01-10-2019, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by skschatzman View Post
Highly doubtful. It is broken on all 2016+ Vizio models and they haven't made any attempt to fix it.
It doesn't appear to need fixing when it comes to rec 709 calibrations. I used offset for SDR, and when I focused on white balance adjustments, I didn't touch 5%, 10% adjustments appear to linearly track to 5%, because the delta-e is 0.1.

I assume near black tracking working pretty well. The PQ65 should work the same way or am I out of bounds.

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post #317 of 336 Old 01-10-2019, 01:24 PM
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Here's a screenshot of my grayscale after white balance was done. I'll go back to fine tune the upper end at some point.

This is with LD off, if it matters, Film Mode is off as well.

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post #318 of 336 Old 01-10-2019, 02:21 PM
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Here's a screenshot of my grayscale after white balance was done. I'll go back to fine tune the upper end at some point.
Hi, your RGB balance is perfect, but you have gamma errors, configure HCFR to include gamma errors to the reported dE numbers, from HCFR Preferences -> Advanced -> change the Grayscale handling to ''Absolute Y w/gamma'', to include to the dE calculation the gamma errors also. (Color Difference Formula from Recommend to CIE2000)

While you will adjust your RGB balance errors, look at each % Grey data the meter reports, there is a Y (which shows to you the measured luminance) and the Y target (which show the target luminance), and re-adjust your settings to fix gamma errors also.
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post #319 of 336 Old 01-10-2019, 03:08 PM
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Hi, your RGB balance is perfect, but you have gamma errors, configure HCFR to include gamma errors to the reported dE numbers, from HCFR Preferences -> Advanced -> change the Grayscale handling to ''Absolute Y w/gamma'', to include to the dE calculation the gamma errors also. (Color Difference Formula from Recommend to CIE2000)

While you will adjust your RGB balance errors, look at each % Grey data the meter reports, there is a Y (which shows to you the measured luminance) and the Y target (which show the target luminance), and re-adjust your settings to fix gamma errors also.
A little info I forgot to include.

It's ICtCp color difference and BT.1886 gamma at 2.2. Also when LD is switched back on gamma goes up to 2.2. Like you said there are errors in gamma, so I'll definitely do what you suggested, but I'll stick with ICtCp color difference.

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post #320 of 336 Old 01-10-2019, 03:18 PM
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A little info I forgot to include.

It's ICtCp color difference and BT.1886 gamma at 2.2. Also when LD is switched back on gamma goes up to 2.2. Like you said there are errors in gamma, so I'll definitely do what you suggested, but I'll stick with ICtCp color difference.
You can use ICtCp, no problem, just to fix gamma errors also, whatever dE reporting method you will use

(BT.1886 don't have power function with selectable from the user value, like the power law function gamma).

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post #321 of 336 Old 01-10-2019, 03:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob View Post
It doesn't appear to need fixing when it comes to rec 709 calibrations. I used offset for SDR, and when I focused on white balance adjustments, I didn't touch 5%, 10% adjustments appear to linearly track to 5%, because the delta-e is 0.1.

I assume near black tracking working pretty well. The PQ65 should work the same way or am I out of bounds.

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It has nothing to do with tracking above 5%. The issue is how offset effects 0-5%. Any adjustment below 0 will crush blacks and shadow detail. Any adjustments above 0 will raise the black level. Not only that, but balance is effected as well. For example if RGB 0,0,0 on offset and you raise green by 1 point will cause the 0% black to be brighter and look green. Vice versa if you reduce green by 1 will crush some shadow detail and the color balance of the shadow detail will look redish-blue. I have tested many 2016+ Vizio's and the behavior is the same on all of them.

You can see this with a near black reading, but isn't necessary as you can easily see the issue without a meter using a brightness pattern.

Last edited by skschatzman; 01-10-2019 at 03:57 PM.
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post #322 of 336 Old 01-10-2019, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by skschatzman View Post
It has nothing to do with tracking above 5%. The issue is how offset effects 0-5%. Any adjustment below 0 will crush blacks and shadow detail. Any adjustments above 0 will raise the black level. Not only that, but balance is effected as well. For example if RGB 0,0,0 on offset and you raise green by 1 point will cause the 0% black to be brighter and look green. Vice versa if you reduce green by 1 will crush some shadow detail and the color balance of the shadow detail will look redish-blue. I have tested many 2016+ Vizio's and the behavior is the same on all of them.

You can see this with a near black reading, but isn't necessary as you can easily see the issue without a meter using a brightness pattern.
I guess I'm lucky, because, I see no red/blue tinted shadows in any content. Also, I understood that it didn't have anything to do with the percentages above 5%.

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Last edited by DisplayCalNoob; 01-10-2019 at 06:09 PM.
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post #323 of 336 Old 01-10-2019, 06:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob View Post
I guess I'm lucky, because, I see no red/blue tinted shadows in any content. Also, I understood that it didn't have anything to do with the percentages above 5%.

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Did you test with a brightness pattern?
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post #324 of 336 Old 01-10-2019, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skschatzman View Post
Did you test with a brightness pattern?
I didn't use a brightness test pattern, I just left everything at stock. Calibrated 2 point to D65, and the results were

Offset
4 0 2
Gain
-17 5 8

I adjusted, then did a full grayscale sweep, at least three or more times until the color temperature tracked, as close as possible, from 0-100.



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post #325 of 336 Old 01-10-2019, 07:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob View Post
I didn't use a brightness test pattern, I just left everything at stock. Calibrated 2 point to D65, and the results were

Offset
4 0 2
Gain
-17 5 8

I adjusted, then did a full grayscale sweep, at least three or more times until the color temperature tracked, as close as possible, from 0-100.



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I recommend you put up a brightness pattern. Reset offset to 0,0,0 and slowly add the adjustments to your calibration level. Watch the patterns the whole time and you can see the 0-5% patches change for the worse and also the black background will get brighter.
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Originally Posted by skschatzman View Post
I recommend you put up a brightness pattern. Reset offset to 0,0,0 and slowly add the adjustments to your calibration level. Watch the patterns the whole time and you can see the 0-5% patches change for the worse and also the black background will get brighter.
Will do, I'll test it tomorrow. Content wise, there are no visible issues in shadows or raised blacks. It was definitely there in DV/HDR content.

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post #327 of 336 Old 01-11-2019, 10:42 AM
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Is this a glitch with Dolby Vision Brightness value and the HDMI inputs?

For example, if I set the brightness to 30 on any HDMI input (for SDR content) and when HDR10 content played, the brightness changes automatically to 50 (which is intended by me per my calibration settings), but when Dolby Vision content played, the brightness will remain 30, which is supposed to be 50. Why Dolby Vision is behaving like this? My settings for Dolby Vision content is supposed to be 50 per my settings when the DV content is played.
This type of behavior is not observed with the SmartCast OS apps and the Google Cast apps. With SDR content, the brightness is 30, HDR10 is 50 and Dolby Vision is also 50. If the brightness value is global, why it's behaving like this depending on the input?

(it's all observed on the latest firmware 1.1.17.1 with Fire TV 4K Stick on HDMI-4, Full UHD color ON). I believe I had the same issue with my Apple TV 4K.

I would appreciate any help, thanks a lot!!
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post #328 of 336 Old 01-12-2019, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skschatzman View Post
I recommend you put up a brightness pattern. Reset offset to 0,0,0 and slowly add the adjustments to your calibration level. Watch the patterns the whole time and you can see the 0-5% patches change for the worse and also the black background will get brighter.
I put up a brightness pattern and reset offset. Once I put my cal settings back in, black is black, gray is gray. Near black patterns showed the expected levels without any deviation. No visible purple or magenta in blacks. Black level patterns are fine as well.

White balance settings low end are

5% 0 0 0
10% -2 17 2
20% -6 2 -1
30% 0 0 0
40% -6 -6 -6
50% 0 -2 -4

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post #329 of 336 Old 01-12-2019, 02:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob View Post
I put up a brightness pattern and reset offset. Once I put my cal settings back in, black is black, gray is gray. Near black patterns showed the expected levels without any deviation. No visible purple or magenta in blacks. Black level patterns are fine as well.

White balance settings low end are

5% 0 0 0
10% -2 17 2
20% -6 2 -1
30% 0 0 0
40% -6 -6 -6
50% 0 -2 -4
No bud. 5-50% has nothing to do with the issue. Offset is the issue. Change offset back to 0,0,0. Then put up a brightness pattern in a dark room. Start making increasing adjustments to RGB in offset. Look at the screen when making these adjustments and don't use the on screen menu. Use the smartcast app for adjustments to offset. Level 17-20(sometimes more) start to change color for the worse. Also the native black level increases in luminance and color. You can see it in the black background of the brightness pattern or even more so with a 0% IRE pattern.

Last edited by skschatzman; 01-12-2019 at 02:58 PM.
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post #330 of 336 Old 01-12-2019, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skschatzman View Post
No bud. 5-50% has nothing to do with the issue. Offset is the issue. Change offset back to 0,0,0. Then put up a brightness pattern in a dark room. Start making increasing adjustments to RGB in offset. Look at the screen when making these adjustments and don't use the on screen menu. Use the smartcast app for adjustments to offset. Level 17-20(sometimes more) start to change color for the worse. Also the native black level increases in luminance. You can see it with a 0% IRE pattern.
I'll reset the entire calibration, I have all the calibration settings written down.

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