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post #61 of 251 Old 10-01-2018, 12:34 PM
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Would be interesting to see this test patten before/after calibration
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post #62 of 251 Old 10-02-2018, 07:33 AM
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Hi all


Is the i1 Display Pro V B-02 good enough to do SDR auto cal on the AF9 or do I need a better meter?
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post #63 of 251 Old 10-02-2018, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
Actually the A9F is not set to x0.0306 y0.3118 OOTB. Mine measures no where near that white point..... at least not with the 1931 Observer match function.

It is also no different than the OOTB Cinema Pro of the A8F and A1E (speaking of Custom on the A9F).
I'm wondering if the white point you came out with, by comparing the white point of our beloved Kuro, it is valid for all LGD 2018 panel or it has to be tweaked a bit. If I would be pushed to bet I'll bet on the second option.

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post #64 of 251 Old 10-02-2018, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
I'm wondering if the white point you came out with, by comparing the white point of our beloved Kuro, it is valid for all LGD 2018 panel or it has to be tweaked a bit. If I would be pushed to bet I'll bet on the second option.
It’s valid for all 2018 LGD panels
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post #65 of 251 Old 10-06-2018, 02:51 AM
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Vincent takes a look at the A9F,the Master calibrator



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post #66 of 251 Old 10-06-2018, 07:16 AM - Thread Starter
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I posted this comment over on the A9F owners thread but it's appropriate here as well:
>>
I thought Vincent's review was really good, detailed and thorough. The only thing that I believe needs clarification is the white point and the slight color banding comments. Determining which white point to use has been discussed for years. D-Nice is one of the "experts" in that area since he's done so much work on that topic and i'm sure he will weigh in on this. But what i believe Vincent "meant", was that Sony was saying using their white point on the A9F, Z9F and the BVM-X300 would make all three devices look the same and I agree it will not which is why you need to perceptually match the three panels if you want to make them look the same because each panel uses a different technology. Whether or not the modified JUDD white point is good or bad or just calibrate to D65 or some other better white point is a topic for discussion. If you get one of the new Sony's and you don't have it side by side with another set you will probably like the PQ just fine unless you have a trained eye and looking for this.

About the color banding, it's not 100% Calman's Autocal causing the problem but probably in combination with the CMS controls. Like any control, even on the LG's which i feel have the best calibration controls, when you start making large adjustments they can generate banding and artifacts which is why you still need someone experienced to use the tool. Just like calibrating manually, you need to make a judgement call on how much to adjust. With Autocal, you can run it and then go in and manually tweak it so if Autocal made an aggressive adjustment, you can run it again and or manually adjust and correct it. The tool is just going through the motions and taking readings and making adjustments and nothing is 100% perfect so just wanted to clear that up. I've used Autocal several times and i feel it works well and can do a lot of work reducing errors on this finnicky set most of the time but you have manual control to finalize the calibration as well. To me, Autocal is a good thing to have if you want to use it Also since it manipulates the user controls, you can document the settings just like with a manual calibration and no backup program is needed.
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post #67 of 251 Old 10-06-2018, 07:42 AM
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When performing an autocal can you after that go in the sony menu and check what adjustments have been made on the greyscale and cms or are all these numbers 0 and the adjustments are hidden?
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post #68 of 251 Old 10-06-2018, 07:51 AM
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While I have a Z9F on order, and not an OLED, and since a Z9F calibration thread has not been started yet (AFAIK), I will ask the question here. Is the standard 65K white point appropriate for the typical LED/LCD monitor, or is there a different recommendation? And would the recommendation vary by make/model?
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post #69 of 251 Old 10-06-2018, 07:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T( )( )L View Post
When performing an autocal can you after that go in the sony menu and check what adjustments have been made on the greyscale and cms or are all these numbers 0 and the adjustments are hidden?
Since Autocal is just manipulating the user controls, none are hidden or grayed out and yes you can go in using the DDC or the regular TV remote menus to make adjustments.
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post #70 of 251 Old 10-06-2018, 03:42 PM
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The talk of Judd white point vs D65 has me thinking


When the new Sony master Tv's were shown at a press launch and at the shoot out a BVM300 monitor was also on display


We are told the BVM300 is used by many broadcasters as a reference display and I guess the 300's were on display to show how close the new master tv's came to the 300 in picture quality


The 300's I guess were set to Judd white point and I further guess the new master sets looked good when compared to the 300's


So if a Tv show is mastered on a 300 with Judd white point and the master sets are close to the same white point why is it felt by some wrong for the new sets to be set to Judd and instead the new sets should be set to D65?


If the new sets are set to D65 and if all the above is true then with a D65 white point the picture will not look as close to the 300 it was mastered on than if the new set was at Judd white point.


I am quite sure I am missing something in my thinking so if someone can put me right I would be very grateful
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post #71 of 251 Old 10-07-2018, 02:47 AM
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Originally Posted by 333444 View Post
The talk of Judd white point vs D65 has me thinking


When the new Sony master Tv's were shown at a press launch and at the shoot out a BVM300 monitor was also on display


We are told the BVM300 is used by many broadcasters as a reference display and I guess the 300's were on display to show how close the new master tv's came to the 300 in picture quality


The 300's I guess were set to Judd white point and I further guess the new master sets looked good when compared to the 300's


So if a Tv show is mastered on a 300 with Judd white point and the master sets are close to the same white point why is it felt by some wrong for the new sets to be set to Judd and instead the new sets should be set to D65?


If the new sets are set to D65 and if all the above is true then with a D65 white point the picture will not look as close to the 300 it was mastered on than if the new set was at Judd white point.


I am quite sure I am missing something in my thinking so if someone can put me right I would be very grateful
The three displays use different panels, oled rgb woled and pva led lcd.

They look different to the human eye, when calibrated to the same white point, because they have different light spectrums which are are know to differ from the ideal light spectrum.
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post #72 of 251 Old 10-07-2018, 02:49 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
I posted this comment over on the A9F owners thread but it's appropriate here as well:
>>
I thought Vincent's review was really good, detailed and thorough. The only thing that I believe needs clarification is the white point and the slight color banding comments. Determining which white point to use has been discussed for years. D-Nice is one of the "experts" in that area since he's done so much work on that topic and i'm sure he will weigh in on this. But what i believe Vincent "meant", was that Sony was saying using their white point on the A9F, Z9F and the BVM-X300 would make all three devices look the same and I agree it will not which is why you need to perceptually match the three panels if you want to make them look the same because each panel uses a different technology. Whether or not the modified JUDD white point is good or bad or just calibrate to D65 or some other better white point is a topic for discussion. If you get one of the new Sony's and you don't have it side by side with another set you will probably like the PQ just fine unless you have a trained eye and looking for this.

About the color banding, it's not 100% Calman's Autocal causing the problem but probably in combination with the CMS controls. Like any control, even on the LG's which i feel have the best calibration controls, when you start making large adjustments they can generate banding and artifacts which is why you still need someone experienced to use the tool. Just like calibrating manually, you need to make a judgement call on how much to adjust. With Autocal, you can run it and then go in and manually tweak it so if Autocal made an aggressive adjustment, you can run it again and or manually adjust and correct it. The tool is just going through the motions and taking readings and making adjustments and nothing is 100% perfect so just wanted to clear that up. I've used Autocal several times and i feel it works well and can do a lot of work reducing errors on this finnicky set most of the time but you have manual control to finalize the calibration as well. To me, Autocal is a good thing to have if you want to use it Also since it manipulates the user controls, you can document the settings just like with a manual calibration and no backup program is needed.
20p wb controls are now available in the user menue?

I’ve heard on the first firmware version only 10p was available in the user menue.
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post #73 of 251 Old 10-07-2018, 04:54 AM
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20p wb controls are now available in the user menue?



I’ve heard on the first firmware version only 10p was available in the user menue.


The 20p WB controls are only available if you connect the tv to CalMAN but not in the user menu.
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post #74 of 251 Old 10-07-2018, 06:27 AM
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The 20p WB controls are only available if you connect the tv to CalMAN but not in the user menu.

So a user can’t restore the calibrated settings if the calibrater used 20p.
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post #75 of 251 Old 10-07-2018, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by baller02 View Post
The three displays use different panels, oled rgb woled and pva led lcd.

They look different to the human eye, when calibrated to the same white point, because they have different light spectrums which are are know to differ from the ideal light spectrum.

so are you saying the pictures on the 300 and the new master sets did not match at the press launch? if so what was the point of having the 300 at the launch supposedly proving how accurate the new sets were when compared to the 300?


Sorry if I seem thick but I am really trying to understand this
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post #76 of 251 Old 10-07-2018, 07:10 AM
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so are you saying the pictures on the 300 and the new master sets did not match at the press launch? if so what was the point of having the 300 at the launch supposedly proving how accurate the new sets were when compared to the 300?


Sorry if I seem thick but I am really trying to understand this
I don’t know i was not at the event.
From other tests and reports, the say for example that a revenant scene looked on the lg c8 more like the x300. Because the af9 seems to have an issue with green in the internal rec.709 lut.

What we know, when you calibrate rgb oled woled and led lcd to the same white point they will look different.

We also don’t know which white point sony really used for the press event.
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post #77 of 251 Old 10-07-2018, 08:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Make sure if you are using Custom Pro 1 & 1 with autocal that you have the .S13 or .S14 patch because there was a luminance bug with earlier versions with these two picture modes. Some sets are getting the patch and I have one that's not. Not sure why.

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post #78 of 251 Old 10-07-2018, 02:16 PM - Thread Starter
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I measured a 65 A9F today with a Calman HDR scan, 10% window, 699 nits.
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post #79 of 251 Old 10-07-2018, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
I measured a 65 A9F today with a Calman HDR scan, 10% window, 699 nits.
Quite a bit different from the 1,675 that you reported for the Z9F.
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
I measured a 65 A9F today with a Calman HDR scan, 10% window, 699 nits.[IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
Quite a bit different from the 1,675 that you reported for the Z9F.
the z9 is reallly bright. It’s a really nice set.
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post #81 of 251 Old 10-08-2018, 12:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Using Autocal more and i'm finding the gray scale calibration is pretty consistent but the CMS can vary slightly from pass to pass. I wish they had a rolling calibration for CMS. That said I can make minor manual tweaks to the CMS to get it dead on to work around this.

I also found setting the interval to 10/5/15 gives the best and most consistent results even though it slows down the process slightly.

Finally, the 20 pt gray scale has a unique set of patches. The LG uses 0,5,10,15, etc...100%. The sony uses 4.5,9.6,15,etc..100% when using 20 pt rolling calibration so you need a patch generator external or using a PC to generate these patches.
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post #82 of 251 Old 10-08-2018, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
I measured a 65 A9F today with a Calman HDR scan, 10% window, 699 nits.
I know everyone gets worked up about 10% windows and I know that seems to be the brightest pattern typically but I want a TV that doesn't drop off below 10%... Increasing would be fine also.

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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Using Autocal more and i'm finding the gray scale calibration is pretty consistent but the CMS can vary slightly from pass to pass. I wish they had a rolling calibration for CMS. That said I can make minor manual tweaks to the CMS to get it dead on to work around this.

I also found setting the interval to 10/5/15 gives the best and most consistent results even though it slows down the process slightly.

Finally, the 20 pt gray scale has a unique set of patches. The LG uses 0,5,10,15, etc...100%. The sony uses 4.5,9.6,15,etc..100% when using 20 pt rolling calibration so you need a patch generator external or using a PC to generate these patches.
Is Autocal still in beta, or is it available to end users at this time?
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Is Autocal still in beta, or is it available to end users at this time?
Alpha actually.

Once it hits beta it will likely be available.

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Yes what i'm using is Alpha because I was helping test. I believe the Beta is coming out very soon with a lot of fixes. The good news is that it works pretty well especially since now there are 20 finnicky gray scale controls instead of 10 to deal with lol. Autocal has the right formula to get the errors way down for a manual tweak if needed.
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I calibrated my 55A9F with firmware S.14. To my surprise, the black crush issue we had seen on some sets looks like it's been fixed. Just not sure if S.13 or S.14 fixed it. Now it looks best keeping the Black level at 50 and on some panels 51. You can experiment with your specific set to see which works best.

I also calibrated Custom Pro1, expert1 to D65 and Custom Pro2, expert2 to Sony's modified Judd White point so I could compare the two. To my eyes, when you do the A/B test, the modified Judd White point looks a little cooler since it is vectoring towards blue/magenta. That said, for me I prefer D65. It just looks more "natural" to me compared to the Judd point. I would really like to know what LG is targeting in their Technicolor PM. I asked but still waiting for an answer. It's probably published somewhere, just have to find it.
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Has anyone tried to manually calibrate the A9 or the Z9 yet? I found some interesting behaviors. I understand, calman will be releasing a Beta with Autocal for the Sony soon so i'm hoping we get some activity here.

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post #88 of 251 Old 10-16-2018, 07:51 AM
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Has anyone tried to manually calibrate the A9 or the Z9 yet? I found some interesting behaviors. I understand, calman will be releasing a Beta with Autocal for the Sony soon so i'm hoping we get some activity here.
I continue to sit on the sidelines, waiting for my 75Z9F to magically arrive. I have also deferred purchase of the C6 HDR2000 colorimeter, waiting instead for reports of how well the Autocal works. One beta tester, who shall go unnamed, has provided some encouraging reports about the Autocal results. I continue to be optimistic about the Autocal, and am chomping at the bit to give it a try!
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post #89 of 251 Old 10-16-2018, 08:48 AM
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For what I know and tried on different displays and for what I've heard from people like @jrref and some other who prefers to stay unknown (), the (semi)Autocal function works OK: you press the button and it does its guesswork well. After that, who wants a better calibration might want to tweak here and there GS and CMS. But for the saturday night calibrator it would be already good. It saves our time, that's sure. So it's a really welcome feature IMO.

Another argument is how the panel performs after calibration. Please pay attention, I did not say or mean after autocal or CalMAN calibration, I did say CALIBRATION (also manual and also done with any other manual calibration software). By now we are used to hearing the various TV reviewers talking about color checkers and how they base their judgment on this factor to determine if a TV is accurate. But this is also known by TV producers and they adapt accordingly. What would happen if instead of a hundred colors Vincent or others did a check on a 1000 points LUT? Well, different flaws would come out, be sure. As always, if someone with the right tools wants to do a try, I'm available to process the results.

Audio/Video Chain: Pioneer PDP-LX5090H, Pioneer VSX-921, Panasonic DMP-BDT260EG, Wharfedale Diamond 10.4 | External LUT box: Entertainment Experience eeColor
Calibration softwares: Light Illusion Lightspace CMS HTP, Portrait Displays/Spectracal CalMAN Home Enthusiast 2018, HCFR, DisplayCAL/ArgyllCMS
Probes: x-rite i1 Pro 2, basICColor DISCUS | Test Pattern Generator: DVDO AVLab TPG
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post #90 of 251 Old 10-16-2018, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
For what I know and tried on different displays and for what I've heard from people like @jrref and some other who prefers to stay unknown (), the (semi)Autocal function works OK: you press the button and it does its guesswork well. After that, who wants a better calibration might want to tweak here and there GS and CMS. But for the saturday night calibrator it would be already good. It saves our time, that's sure. So it's a really welcome feature IMO.

Another argument is how the panel performs after calibration. Please pay attention, I did not say or mean after autocal or CalMAN calibration, I did say CALIBRATION (also manual and also done with any other manual calibration software). By now we are used to hearing the various TV reviewers talking about color checkers and how they base their judgment on this factor to determine if a TV is accurate. But this is also known by TV producers and they adapt accordingly. What would happen if instead of a hundred colors Vincent or others did a check on a 1000 points LUT? Well, different flaws would come out, be sure. As always, if someone with the right tools wants to do a try, I'm available to process the results.
Miki, if I correctly understand what I've read, the Sony autocal acts directly on the same user controls as one would use in a manual calibration. No DDC, and no manipulation of the set's internal LUT. Therefore, a good autocal would be subject to the same display peculiarities as an average manual calibration, such as thermal drift, etc. A 1000-point profile should be similar (note that I did NOT say "identical") between the two types of calibration. Yes, I do realize that some are much more OCD and will spend lots of time hammering dEs as low as possible, but I think that many people - perhaps the majority - won't. And they'll be happy with either an autocal or a "normal" (one- or two- pass and done) manual calibration, as you said. Saturday Night Calibrator, indeed!

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