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post #31 of 157 Old 11-07-2018, 04:07 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
It would be interesting to test some of the more popular high end sets from LG and Sony, and Panasonic if you are not in the US, to see what the difference is, if any to the calibration sending the set YCbCr and RGB. Since the TV won't process RGB, there should be no error but converting YCbCr to RGB, maybe some sets have a problem?

This is a pet interest of mine because through experimentation on the LG and Sony OLEDS, I can never see the difference putting the Murideo to Auto vs YCbCr or RGB. At least nothing that I can detect. Everyone says don't use Auto because the EDID could be wrong from the TV, IDK. I think a lot of us assume high-end TVs do the conversion from YCbCr to RGB correctly so there shouldn't be a difference.

What would be the best quick and long test to see where there is a potential for errors n this regard?
Initially, you can locate some LED-LCD from various brands (where you will have better repeatability, less drift during measurements) and check near black, grayscale and saturation sweeps.... comparing YCbCr REC709 vs. RGB-Video patch generation.

Further step is to do the same test using OLED's.

Also, please, when you reply to posts (example of your post), comfort with forum post methods all we use, correct mentioning of usernames, correct quoting (whole text or text you interested only). Using ^^^ is confusing also.
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post #32 of 157 Old 11-07-2018, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Initially, you can locate some LED-LCD from various brands (where you will have better repeatability, less drift during measurements) and check near black, grayscale and saturation sweeps.... comparing YCbCr REC709 vs. RGB-Video patch generation.

Further step is to do the same test using OLED's.

Also, please, when you reply to posts (example of your post), comfort with forum post methods all we use, correct mentioning of usernames, correct quoting (whole text or text you interested only). Using ^^^ is confusing also.
Ted thanks. I'll have ample opportunity at the store to try both LCD and OLEDs to re-look at this and get back to everyone in what I see.
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post #33 of 157 Old 11-07-2018, 07:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
Tomorrow, I will exclude it is something related with the display I'm using to test as I'll test ATV 4K signal with my Kuro and my 2017 LG Edge LED. But I'm pretty sure it will have the same issue.
I checked now, same issue with Kuro and LG LED. I guess it’s something in the new Apple 4K video processor. See you when ATV 8K will be out lol
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post #34 of 157 Old 11-07-2018, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
Your assertion about DV config file is a misunderstanding of the differences of the 2017 vs 2018 LG panel. The panel saturation control that was introduced in the 2018 panel results in much better DV calibration results as far as gamut accuracy. One workaround on the 2017 model, Is to tweak the global saturation control after loading the config file. Most likely you will have to boost the saturation a little bit to get the color checker to fall in line.

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Its very interesting that from the whole thread testing results, which talking about measured digital errors of MobileForge with any tested device, you picked to reply only to Dolby Vision calibration post.

Because typical consumers were not able to perform such tests; like Angel.Miki who spend a lot of money to get all that gear and test (and they were not their job to test anything...for that reason they pay to buy and use commercial solutions, where companies who released that products have to test before they release them), just to remind to people your findings related to MobileForge accuracy:


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post #35 of 157 Old 11-09-2018, 07:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Ted thanks. I'll have ample opportunity at the store to try both LCD and OLEDs to re-look at this and get back to everyone in what I see.
John, is all OK? Have you done that test yet?

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post #36 of 157 Old 11-09-2018, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
John, is all OK? Have you done that test yet?
Sorry, been busy.

I had some time to manually re-calibrate my 55A1E and tried a very unscientific but somewhat interesting test.
1) I did a scan with my Klein K10A in contact with screen with the hood putting the Murideo 6G on Auto. This will ask the TV what format it wants just like a connected BluRay player will if the EDID is working correctly. I know on the Sony it is.

2) I then did a gray scale and CMS scan with the 6G set to 444 YCbCr
3) Then with the 6G set to 422 YCbCr
4) Then with the 6G set to RGB Limited then RGB Full

I found that there was virtually no difference between Auto, YCbCr 444 & 420. I say virtually because the OLED drifts slightly so it's almost impossible to get an exact match on every scan. What I did see was RGB Full was way off, which I knew it would be, and RGB Limited had minor but noticeable errors when compared to the YCbCr/Auto scans.

The result is on the Sony, it expects YCbCr input which is what we knew and sending it RGB Limited introduced some errors. I know Ted's disk patterns are bit perfect YCbCr and in trying a couple of patches, they matched the 6G at 1080, YCbCr, 8 bit. I wasn't able to verify the triplets as you would in a scientific experiment but the gray scale CM scan looked extremely close.

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post #37 of 157 Old 11-10-2018, 05:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
I found that there was virtually no difference between Auto, YCbCr 444 & 420. I say virtually because the OLED drifts slightly so it's almost impossible to get an exact match on every scan. What I did see was RGB Full was way off, which I knew it would be, and RGB Limited had minor but noticeable errors when compared to the YCbCr/Auto scans.

The result is on the Sony, it expects YCbCr input which is what we knew and sending it RGB Limited introduced some errors. I know Ted's disk patterns are bit perfect YCbCr and in trying a couple of patches, they matched the 6G at 1080, YCbCr, 8 bit. I wasn't able to verify the triplets as you would in a scientific experiment but the gray scale CM scan looked extremely close.
This exactly I'm talking for years, that users found easy (bombed my marketing that its the revolutionary solution) to use external 'low cost' patch generation solutions (which all are working @ RGB) and try to reduce as much as possible their errors, using RGB generated patterns (most of them, especially CalMAN users which using MobileForge which is proven here that is inaccurate to all tested devices), while their charts will look pretty with RGB signal to their HDMI input, when later they will playback movie content, errors due to different processing will be introduced.

Someone can say...why to not set your player output to RGB Video, so to match the same colorspace as your 'low cost' patch genaration solution is generating? ...In that scenario you will have some small or larger errors the player will add to convert YCbCr to RGB-Video, there player which can do that job more accurate than others.

I have posted at past some digital errors testing comparing YCbCr with RGB-Video output (see how much errors the Pioneer reference '$2500' was adding @ RGB-Video: Oppo UDP-203 or Pioneer LX-91 or Sony BDP-S5200.

These are the scenarios and mistakes a lot of people are doing:

1) If you use 'inaccurate' patch generation solution with RGB output (MobileForge as data proven here) and at the end of your calibration...when you will playback movies (movies are using YCbCr colorspace for delivery) with your player with YCbCr output (because most of the known brand stand-alone players I have tested have bit-perfect YCbCr output), then during your movie playback you will have added errors to your signal chain coming from incorrect patch generation and from difference of handling RGB vs. YCbCr input of the display.

2) If you use 'accurate' patch generation solution with RGB output (LightSpace Connect as data proven here) and at the end of your calibration...when you will playback movies (movies are using YCbCr colorspace for delivery) with your player with YCbCr output (because most of the known brand stand-alone players I have tested have bit-perfect YCbCr output), then during your movie playback you will have added errors only from the difference of handling RGB vs. YCbCr input of the display.

What is the most accurate solution:

1) Use an external professional pattern generator (which can cost more money that your actual TV price...its not a solution for all pockets) which its being designed to deliver accurate YCbCr patch generation (but you can't trust anything expensive, see example).

External generators you can trust (which has been verified from calibrators, not from company employers or related with marketing guys) for SDR are DVDO AVLab TPG and Accupel DVG-5000 (both have been discontinued, so you can find them at lower prices.) Both can output accurate YCbCr REC.709 8bit or real 10bit (not fake 10bit).

In that case since your player 99.9% has accurate YCbCr output, and you have an accurate YCbCr generator, you can skip doing manual cal using calibration disk from your source (to calibrate your whole video chain) but use the external generator for that job.

What I'm doing before performing an SDR calibration using internal display controls for adjustments... is to check first using DVDO AVLab TPG and by using my calibration disk as reference the digital level analysis output of the player....to see if its accurate...if its accurate...then I'm using external generator for patch generation.

If inaccurate, for example XBOX One S is always outputting RGB-Video when you playback a movie from the drive or USB input (test results here), so in that case, I use always my calibration disk there for patch generation and not the external generator, because I want the whole video chain to be calibrated.

2) Use a calibration disk which you will playback from your actual playback stand-alone player (which is free or has small fee to get it), use a calibration disk which is correct for your software you will use, because not all calibration disks are compatible with all software, each calibration software require different patches, to Saturation Sweeps / ColorChecker etc.

While this kind of calibration can take longer time, because of manual changing the 10 or 20 grayscale patterns or 6 patterns later for CMS calibration, it will be the cheaper and most accurate solution, since you calibrate your whole video chain.

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post #38 of 157 Old 11-10-2018, 07:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Exactly. But will the TV convert anyway your RGB only video source to YCbCr and then again in RGB?

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post #39 of 157 Old 11-10-2018, 09:15 AM
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So, now I'm more confused than ever.
For ATV 4K what is better?

- Set the ATV to YCbCr then make a calibration within infuse with Ted's patterns for SDR and Masciola for HDR ?
- Make a calibration in RGB with the Raspy > Set ATV to RGB and then maybe checking the errors with patterns within Infuse?


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post #40 of 157 Old 11-10-2018, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
Exactly. But will the TV convert anyway your RGB only video source to YCbCr and then again in RGB?
The point is to have always the whole video chain calibrated, so to include all colorspace conversions to the signal that will appear to the panel....to be able to measure it with the instrument.

When movies are mastered, they calibrate the whole video signal chain also, to include to the correction everything, video card output....software generate patches from inside color grading window etc.

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post #41 of 157 Old 11-10-2018, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by MrRobotoPlus View Post
So, now I'm more confused than ever.
For ATV 4K what is better?

- Set the ATV to YCbCr then make a calibration within infuse with Ted's patterns for SDR and Masciola for HDR ?
- Make a calibration in RGB with the Raspy > Set ATV to RGB and then maybe checking the errors with patterns within Infuse?

The best and quickest test is to measure video streamed patterns from inside ATV and then measure the same patterns via Rpi. (Your TV don't need to be calibrated, just use the default settings)

Compare then both reports and decide.

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post #42 of 157 Old 11-10-2018, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
The best and quickest test is to measure video streamed patterns from inside ATV and then measure the same patterns via Rpi. (Your TV don't need to be calibrated, just use the default settings)

Compare then both reports and decide.
Since YCbCr is way off RGB then
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post #43 of 157 Old 11-10-2018, 10:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRobotoPlus View Post
So, now I'm more confused than ever.
For ATV 4K what is better?

- Set the ATV to YCbCr then make a calibration within infuse with Ted's patterns for SDR and Masciola for HDR ?
- Make a calibration in RGB with the Raspy > Set ATV to RGB and then maybe checking the errors with patterns within Infuse?

[IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/confused.gif[/IMG]
With what software? Anyway, nothing is good with ATV 4K and nothing is good with MobileForge. I strongly suggest RPi for CM.
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Keep in mind that the atv is using ycbcr for hdr, also in case you set the atv to rgb.

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post #45 of 157 Old 11-10-2018, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by baller02 View Post
Keep in mind that the atv is using ycbcr for hdr, also in case you set the atv to rgb.
Yep, i know.

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post #46 of 157 Old 11-10-2018, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by MrRobotoPlus View Post
Since YCbCr is way off RGB then
You will be interested to compare the YCbCr from ATV video stream playback, not the YCbCr using app and software patch generation of ATV.

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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
You will be interested to compare the YCbCr from ATV video stream playback, not the YCbCr using app and software patch generation of ATV.
aren't your patterns streamed by infuse player enough?

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post #48 of 157 Old 11-10-2018, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by MrRobotoPlus View Post
aren't your patterns streamed by infuse player enough?

Yes, post the measurements later

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post #49 of 157 Old 11-10-2018, 02:17 PM - Thread Starter
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It’s useless to measure. Color values (YCbCr/RGB triplets) fluctuate always, in menu, in movies, in infuse, in airplay. ATV 4K it’s not usable as TPG. Do. Not. Use. It.
Is it clear now? 😄

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post #50 of 157 Old 11-10-2018, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
It’s useless to measure. Color values (YCbCr/RGB triplets) fluctuate always, in menu, in movies, in infuse, in airplay. ATV 4K it’s not usable as TPG. Do. Not. Use. It.
Is it clear now? 😄
Miki I watch a lot of movies on Itunes. Need a calibrated ATV. Clear?
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post #51 of 157 Old 11-10-2018, 09:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
Exactly. But will the TV convert anyway your RGB only video source to YCbCr and then again in RGB?


Absolutely. There are certain video processing tasks that absolutely cannot be done in RGB and some that have to be done in RGB.

Things like CMS , saturation and sharpness have to happen in YCBCR. Things like 1D and 3D look up tables and HDR tone mapping are almost always done in RGB space.
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post #52 of 157 Old 11-11-2018, 01:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRobotoPlus View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
It’s useless to measure. Color values (YCbCr/RGB triplets) fluctuate always, in menu, in movies, in infuse, in airplay. ATV 4K it’s not usable as TPG. Do. Not. Use. It.
Is it clear now? 😄
Miki I watch a lot of movies on Itunes. Need a calibrated ATV. Clear?
Is ATV 4K directly connected to the TV? Then calibrate that HDMI input with RPi RGB full output and set the TV HDMI to RGB limited (16-235) while calibrating, then back to Auto when you’ve finished.
ATV 4K displays correct triplets but for some reason it elaborates them continuously and changes their values, so you have a color with average 2/3 digital errors which is NOT a drama, you still are under < 0,50 dE. So if your TV with YCBCr color space has an average dE of 0,50 you are still accurate.
But don’t trust anyone, do your own test that could be:
1) calibrate yout TV using Ted’s disc via BDP
2) measure your TV accuracy using Calman color checker SG included in Ted’s disc with your BDP (I hope it is bit accurate)
3) do the same with Ted’s media file streamed through Infuse/ATV 4K
4) calibrate again using ATV 4K YCbCr 444 output and Ted’s media file streamed with Infuse
5) redo 2) & 3)
6) report back

If you have also a spectro (I’m sorry, I don’t remember), profile your colorimeter with TV native gamut with Ted’s disc via BDP or RPi and use always that FCCM
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Last edited by Anger.miki; 11-11-2018 at 01:19 AM.
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post #53 of 157 Old 11-11-2018, 09:20 AM
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Thank you for the basics. I know how to perform a calibration, at least. And I do that at any firmware update.
Actually that wasn't my question.

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post #54 of 157 Old 11-11-2018, 12:38 PM - Thread Starter
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I’m sorry, would you be so kind to reformulate your question for me please?

Audio/Video Chain: Pioneer PDP-LX5090H, Pioneer VSX-921, Panasonic DMP-BDT260EG, Wharfedale Diamond 10.4 | External LUT box: Entertainment Experience eeColor
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post #55 of 157 Old 11-11-2018, 02:48 PM
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I’m sorry, would you be so kind to reformulate your question for me please?
Since WE already know all the problems about ATV output. What is still better to calibrate taking in consideration the space color conversion process chain, ycbcr or rgb?

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Last edited by MrRobotoPlus; 11-11-2018 at 02:54 PM.
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post #56 of 157 Old 11-11-2018, 04:48 PM
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As the values aren't there to look at, can I ask how bad is the RPI YCbCr for calibration as there isn't a graph for it? Are we talking just minor errors, or great big monster errors that are very obvious?

And using the Apple TV, I assume that you mean using the Lightspace Connect app on the iphone/ipad and then screen mirroring to the AppleTV? I couldn't find a specific Lightspace Connect app in the AppleTV app store.

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post #57 of 157 Old 11-11-2018, 10:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vollans View Post
As the values aren't there to look at, can I ask how bad is the RPI YCbCr for calibration as there isn't a graph for it? Are we talking just minor errors, or great big monster errors that are very obvious?

And using the Apple TV, I assume that you mean using the Lightspace Connect app on the iphone/ipad and then screen mirroring to the AppleTV? I couldn't find a specific Lightspace Connect app in the AppleTV app store.
RPi outputting YCbCr returns monster errors, 14/35 digital errors I have the chart but I didn’t post it because it could have confused people easily.
LightSpace Connect doesn’t have a native ATV app. So, yes you must use AirPlay with it. But again,I would use it with ATV 3rd and maybe 4th gen, not 4K.
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Audio/Video Chain: Pioneer PDP-LX5090H, Pioneer VSX-921, Panasonic DMP-BDT260EG, Wharfedale Diamond 10.4 | External LUT box: Entertainment Experience eeColor
Calibration softwares: Light Illusion Lightspace CMS HTP, Portrait Displays/Spectracal CalMAN Home Enthusiast 2018, HCFR, DisplayCAL/ArgyllCMS
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post #58 of 157 Old 11-11-2018, 11:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
I’m sorry, would you be so kind to reformulate your question for me please?
Since WE already know all the problems about ATV output. What is still better to calibrate taking in consideration the space color conversion process chain, ycbcr or rgb?
If my only device was ATV 4K or if I had someone with a gun pointed to my face, then I’ll choose YCbCr. RGB has more digital errors.

I’m sorry to feel you are somewhat upset, I’m here to help and I’ve spent my time doing all those tests not only for free but spending my hard earned money to demonstrate something that I already knew. I’m a always joking dude, as people who knows me better knows. So if something that I wrote hurted your feelings... I’m sorry, that wasn’t my intention.
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Calibration softwares: Light Illusion Lightspace CMS HTP, Portrait Displays/Spectracal CalMAN Home Enthusiast 2018, HCFR, DisplayCAL/ArgyllCMS
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post #59 of 157 Old 11-12-2018, 01:01 AM
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Only for colors or also for grayscale?

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post #60 of 157 Old 11-12-2018, 02:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
If my only device was ATV 4K or if I had someone with a gun pointed to my face, then I’ll choose YCbCr. RGB has more digital errors.

I’m sorry to feel you are somewhat upset, I’m here to help and I’ve spent my time doing all those tests not only for free but spending my hard earned money to demonstrate something that I already knew. I’m a always joking dude, as people who knows me better knows. So if something that I wrote hurted your feelings... I’m sorry, that wasn’t my intention.
Ma figurati Miki.
On my ATV YCbCr is the less accurate. I wonder if there's anything wrong with my B7.

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