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post #1 of 20 Old 11-28-2018, 04:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Noob calibrator looking for wisdom. Q8FN

I just got an 82'' Samsung Q8FN and decided I wanted to learn calibration.

Here's what I've done so far:
Purchased x-rite display pro 3 (amazon 204$USD) and Ted's Calibration disc from his website (hopefully arriving soon).
Installed HCFR.
Read everything I can find on this site and links given to gain an understanding (I feel confused still).

What I am looking for is some wisdom or insight that you guys wish someone would have told you before you did your first calibration.

Also should I be looking at an eye one pro spectrometer for profiling? (I barely understand this concept but it seems important for an accurate calibration) Without profiling how close am I going to get?

People talk about "work flow" and the key to HCFR is knowing what to do. How come its so hard to find what to do? How do I pass the confusion barrier without resorting to buying calman and having it hold my hand.

Hoping this post can help me and others start out.
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post #2 of 20 Old 11-28-2018, 04:50 PM
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Check out the "Calibration for Dummies" thread. That's not a slam at you, it's the name of the thread and the how-to guide it discusses. Although the finer points of what to do are aimed at a particular piece of software, the general concepts are applicable to all.

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post #3 of 20 Old 11-29-2018, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thormus View Post
I just got an 82'' Samsung Q8FN and decided I wanted to learn calibration.

Here's what I've done so far:
Purchased x-rite display pro 3 (amazon 204$USD) and Ted's Calibration disc from his website (hopefully arriving soon).
Installed HCFR.
Read everything I can find on this site and links given to gain an understanding (I feel confused still).

What I am looking for is some wisdom or insight that you guys wish someone would have told you before you did your first calibration.

Also should I be looking at an eye one pro spectrometer for profiling? (I barely understand this concept but it seems important for an accurate calibration) Without profiling how close am I going to get?

People talk about "work flow" and the key to HCFR is knowing what to do. How come its so hard to find what to do? How do I pass the confusion barrier without resorting to buying calman and having it hold my hand.

Hoping this post can help me and others start out.
Check out this post by Ted:
http://01900888.com/forum/139-d...l#post57184518

I personally wouldn’t worry about meter profiling when starting out.
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post #4 of 20 Old 11-29-2018, 06:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
Check out the "Calibration for Dummies" thread. That's not a slam at you, it's the name of the thread and the how-to guide it discusses. Although the finer points of what to do are aimed at a particular piece of software, the general concepts are applicable to all.


Will do. I'll use this as my guide.


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post #5 of 20 Old 11-29-2018, 06:56 PM - Thread Starter
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[QUOTE=I personally wouldn’t worry about meter profiling when starting out.[/QUOTE]



Sounds good. I'll stick with the colorimeter for now.


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post #6 of 20 Old 12-08-2018, 04:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thormus View Post
I just got an 82'' Samsung Q8FN and decided I wanted to learn calibration.

Here's what I've done so far:
Purchased x-rite display pro 3 (amazon 204$USD) and Ted's Calibration disc from his website (hopefully arriving soon).
Installed HCFR.
Read everything I can find on this site and links given to gain an understanding (I feel confused still).

What I am looking for is some wisdom or insight that you guys wish someone would have told you before you did your first calibration.

Also should I be looking at an eye one pro spectrometer for profiling? (I barely understand this concept but it seems important for an accurate calibration) Without profiling how close am I going to get?

People talk about "work flow" and the key to HCFR is knowing what to do. How come its so hard to find what to do? How do I pass the confusion barrier without resorting to buying calman and having it hold my hand.

Hoping this post can help me and others start out.
Hi,

For your display calibration, you can use Ted's patterns for SDR REC.709 calibration and get Ryan's patterns for HDR10 calibration.

You can use a free calibration software (HCFR or LightSpace DPS).

There is a HCFR tutorial from a forum member here: The certainly not complete user guide to get to know and calibrate your TV

The instructions about how to use Ted's disk with HCFR are available here.

Start by selecting your Movie preset (since its the mode which is more accurate, select colorspace 'custom' since you have access to full CMS controls), then measure all color temp mode and choose to use the one where you see that it has better RGB balance, do the same by measuring all gamma settings, measure with grayscale and choose the one where it will have better tracking of your target gamma (2.4).

When you will find all these, you will do contrast/brightness/color clipping check via patterns and after that you will start to calibrate your grayscale. Start with 2-Point RGB balance and do 100% White with RGB-Gain and 30% Gray with RGB-Offset controls, when you will do many back/forth until you have stable readings, you will move to 10-Point RGB balance, after your are ready with grayscale you will move to CMS calibration.

When you will start with 100% White, keep one of the R or G or B at zero position and reduce values from other 2 controls, while to handle your luminance output (nits) you will use the backlight (not the RGB balance controls or Contrast).

When you are looking Contrast pattern (and sometimes a Color Clipping pattern), see if all are fine to your 'headroom'. You can see why you need to leave 'headroom' there, some picture examples of 'out of video legal range values' using a latest popular movie, see there.

If you have 10-Point RGB balance controls, its better idea to use 21-Point Grayscale patterns, its better for detecting un-align of calibration controls adjustments with displayed xx% patterns.

Also a good approach is to not perform static pattern real-time (with TV menus active, that can affect your measurements), but to run a complete grayscale sweep (with OSD off) and then look your charts and apply at once all the settings per each control you believe that will fix (reduce) the errors, then run a new grayscale sweep and you will see that your errors will be lower now, then repeat-repeat until the results will be good.

After the end of grayscale you will move to CMS calibration, after the end of CMS cal, re-check grayscale again.

Always re-check contrast/brightness patterns when you adjust controls that affect top/bottom end.

After multiple grayscale adjustments, be sure that there no banding or strange color shades to your grayscale by looking a Grayscale ramp pattern.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
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post #7 of 20 Old 12-21-2018, 08:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you for the detailed response! I have received yours and Ryan's calibration discs. I was able to get white balance dialed in tightly with an average gamma of 2.38. I am confused on how to adjust colors. What am I aiming for? Do I do 75% or 100% saturation?


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post #8 of 20 Old 12-21-2018, 11:46 PM
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Hey @ Tedd. Since you are a pro can i ask why do 30% 100% instead of 30% to 80% whitebalance?

I actually think i got perfect results by just calibrating 2 point and with mobileforge sideloaded on shield. I can send my results of course so u can advise me if they are good?
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post #9 of 20 Old 12-22-2018, 04:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thormus View Post
Thank you for the detailed response! I have received yours and Ryan's calibration discs. I was able to get white balance dialed in tightly with an average gamma of 2.38. I am confused on how to adjust colors. What am I aiming for? Do I do 75% or 100% saturation?
Hi, after the end of the grayscale, moving to color gamut calibration, you have to see what kind of patterns will provide you overall better performance.

Its something different per display, some displays provide low errors with 75% Saturation with 100% Stimulus, others with 100% Saturation.

You have to see what is the best compromise.

There many times where the saturation tracking is not perfect to points away from these you have used to adjust your color gamut, since you have 1 point per primary/secondary color (6 points to handle the whole gamut) its nearly impossible to have low dE everywhere.

The problem with limited internal display controls is that when you are moving away from the calibrated points and measuring other luminance or saturation levels, the errors are will be increased, so the more points (of different luminance/saturation levels) you measure the more errors you will locate. Classic charts or limited points been used usually don't show these issues.

Generally fixing only grayscale issues doesn't guarantee an accurate picture, you get only some good looking Grayscale charts with low dE, the real performance can still have a lot of errors because you are correcting only a few points, away from skin tones or memory colors correction, most of the movies are using mid-low saturation/luminance range colors if you analyze movies data's; most of the colors have mid-low levels, away from the edge of the gamut (100% Saturation / 100% Luminance); the colors which commonly calibrated using display internal calibration controls and default calibration software workflows.

With 3D LUT you will have to do only basic setup using your internal calibration controls, contrast/brightness/sharpness, find native gamut and pre-calibrate only 100% White using RGB-High/Gain controls, while you will look to set your peak output also.

I have posted some (old) results from 3D LUT correction using an LG OLED here, and the Pioneer KURO there.

Moving to 3D LUT, it will save you some thousand new hours of trying different patterns and different values of internal calibration controls to minimize your color errors and never can provide the best possible performance globally; because the adjusting points are only 6 (RGBCMY).

Here I have posted to another user the difference of calibration using internal controls vs. 3D LUT display characterization: Sony A1E 4K HDR OLED TV Thread (No Price Talk)

If you want to stay to internal display controls, there 4 different common type of patterns you can test to find out which ones are providing you better results.

You can perform 4 calibrations (Saturation/Stimulus Level):

75%/75%
75%/100%
100%/75%
100%/100%

...to find out which type of patterns will provide you lower dE overall, try to calibrate based to one of these options (for example 100SAT/75 STIM) and at the end, measure using 4-Point Saturation / 4-Point Luminance / ColorChecker / Fleshtones etc.

Later re-calibrate your display using another option (for example 75SAT/75 STIM) and remeasure at the end with Saturation/ColorChecker SG etc... and compare these 2 reports to see what patterns are providing you lower dE numbers.

I have posted more details there: http://01900888.com/forum/139-d...l#post56249070

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
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post #10 of 20 Old 12-22-2018, 04:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikedagreat90 View Post
Hey @ Tedd. Since you are a pro can i ask why do 30% 100% instead of 30% to 80% whitebalance?

I actually think i got perfect results by just calibrating 2 point and with mobileforge sideloaded on shield. I can send my results of course so u can advise me if they are good?
Hi, when you have only 2p controls, test 30-100% vs. 30-80% to see which kind of patterns combo handling the whole grayscale with lower errors.

When you have both 2p and 10 or 20p, then its better idea to use 30-100 (or 20-100%), when you will move to 10 or 20p, the job will be more easy from your side, since the 100% will be already accurate and it will have the peak output you want (while you will have checked contrast and color clipping patterns that all are fine before moving to 10-20p calibrations).

So it will require less adjustments from your 10/20p controls, which saves time, and always using less calibration controls, the image will be less 'processed' so this can provide better gradation in some displays where their calibration controls are not designed so great.

But one of your major calibration issues is that Shield is not accurate for patch generation, also MobileForge generally is not bit-perfect as software solution as its been tested to this thread: The cheap Test Pattern Generators accuracy thread

It will be better idea to steam some patterns which are accurate for CalMAN from your Shield, so to include to your calibration adjustments any signal changes Shield internal processing/colorspace conversion can manipulate the signal output of the device.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
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post #11 of 20 Old 12-22-2018, 08:21 AM - Thread Starter
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What is the cheapest hardware / software setup that would result in a proper calibration for a home enthusiast? Do lut boxes also do HDR 10?


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post #12 of 20 Old 12-22-2018, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thormus View Post
What is the cheapest hardware / software setup that would result in a proper calibration for a home enthusiast? Do lut boxes also do HDR 10?


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Only SDR from LUT boxes, except for possibly the Lumagen Pro video processor.

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Last edited by Rolls-Royce; 12-23-2018 at 09:38 AM.
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post #13 of 20 Old 12-22-2018, 04:11 PM - Thread Starter
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How do these charts look? First time finally getting things dialed in on SDR. Any pointers? I'm thinking I need to get the 75% 75% in a little closer. I'm sitting around 2.20 for gamma should i be at 2.4?
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post #14 of 20 Old 12-22-2018, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thormus View Post
How do these charts look? First time finally getting things dialed in on SDR. Any pointers? I'm thinking I need to get the 75% 75% in a little closer. I'm sitting around 2.20 for gamma should i be at 2.4?
Whether you’re targeting 2.2 or 2.4 is your preference, but you should set up HCFR accordingly and adjust the gamma to match the reference.
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post #15 of 20 Old 12-23-2018, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thormus View Post
What is the cheapest hardware / software setup that would result in a proper calibration for a home enthusiast? Do lut boxes also do HDR 10?

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Hi, the cheapest 3D LUT Box for SDR is eeColor and you can use DisplayCAL(free) or from paid software solutions CalMAN Enthousiast or LightSpace HTL.

For patch generation you can use ChromeCast for DisplayCAL, from CalMAN Enthusiast MobileForge (which is not bit perfect for ATV/FireStick, see there: The cheap Test Pattern Generators accuracy thread) or LightSpace Connect with ATV/FireStick which is bit-perfect.

(for bit-perfect RGB output, Raspberry Pi 3 B + with PGenerator by Riccardo Biasiotto can be used from CalMAN/LightSpace users)

There very low stock for eeColor, when very soon there will be out-of-stock, the cheapest 3D LUT device for SDR will be ~3K$ (with 17-Point Cube) while eeColor has 65-Point Cube.

HDR10 3D LUT can't be performed with consumer displays of any tech or brand, to perform 3D LUT for HDR10, the display has to disable its internal tone/gamut mapping and have gamma based (native panel) response, also to be stable in HDR10 mode, because these 2 are not possible, you can't have 3D LUT for HDR10, for more detailed answer see below:

http://01900888.com/forum/139-d...l#post56734434

http://01900888.com/forum/139-d...l#post56234908

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post #16 of 20 Old 01-05-2019, 09:35 AM - Thread Starter
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What settings in hcfr should I use for HDR10 calibration? Also is the workflow the same. I am using RG Phosphor setting is that correct? What do I select for color space and gamma?


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post #17 of 20 Old 01-05-2019, 10:40 AM
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What settings in hcfr should I use for HDR10 calibration? Also is the workflow the same. I am using RG Phosphor setting is that correct? What do I select for color space and gamma?
Rec2020/p3 for colour space, ST2084 for EOTF (“gamma”).
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post #18 of 20 Old 01-05-2019, 03:57 PM
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What settings in hcfr should I use for HDR10 calibration? Also is the workflow the same. I am using RG Phosphor setting is that correct? What do I select for color space and gamma?
When you calibrate for HDR10 you should select REC.2020 as colorspace target.

Because displays can't cover that colorspace completely, we are using lower Saturation level (50%) and lower Stimulus Level (50%) patterns.

REC.2020 is being used as container, most of current UHD movies has been mastered using DCI-P3 primaries with REC.2020 D65 White Point calibrated mastering monitors.

Because most of the consumer HDR displays are not covering 100% the DCI-P3 primaries inside REC.2020 container (it will be more difficult to target P3 inside REC2020, for that reason we are using REC.2020 with 50% Saturation patterns for HDR CMS, because xy of 50% Saturation REC.2020 is undersaturated from 100% Saturation of DCI Primaries (inside REC.2020 container), so it's a target that you can reach when the CMS controls of the display are working as expected.

But you can use DCI-P3 Saturation tracking inside a REC.2020 container (REC.2020/P3 selection) to evaluate the display tracking of DCI-P3 inside REC.2020 (where previously have calibrated the display with REC.2020 as target colorspace).

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post #19 of 20 Old 01-05-2019, 10:45 PM - Thread Starter
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So do I set my TV to rec 2020 or dci-p3? Also why doesn't grey balance work the same on HDR 10? What big Y (luminance am I looking for? My TV can do 1300~ nits. I calibrate with local dimming on high for hdr?


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post #20 of 20 Old 01-08-2019, 02:39 AM
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So do I set my TV to rec 2020 or dci-p3? Also why doesn't grey balance work the same on HDR 10? What big Y (luminance am I looking for? My TV can do 1300~ nits.
Only REC.2020 you should use when you calibrate HDR10 of a consumer display. DCI-P3 is not a consumer colorspace, you should aim for DCI-P3 only if you want to do post-production work (if you are colorist).

Basically you should aim for what targets the patterns you are using have designed.

Use REC.2020 50% Saturation with 50% Luminance Level for calibration and REC.2020 or REC.2020/P3 (P3 inside REC.2020) for evaluation (post-calibration verification).

Backlight/Contrast should stay at 100 positions, and software will calculate you the targets.

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S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
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