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post #1 of 122 Old 12-06-2018, 10:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Devastator an LTD02 hybrid design

Who said big bass does not come in “smaller” packages?

The design is a 6th order bandpass non flared horn contributed by @LTD02, a big thanks for his work on this project!

The design found its roots in an outdoor sub project that just so happened to play very nicely with the B&C 21DS115. The tune has been dropped slightly to aid with HT, still very capable at delivering music at high levels. More bracing has been added to endure the added pounding of a 21DS115 or similar sub. This design makes very efficient use of material, similar to a Marty sub in that respect. If you are wondering why so much mid bass, John Wick and for science

Current suitable driver list

Alpine:
-SWS-15

B&C:
-21DS115
-21SW115
-21SW152
-18DS115
-18SW115
-18TBW100

Beyma:
-18PWB1000Fe
-18PW1400Fe

Dayton:
-PA460

Lavoce:
-SAN 214.50
-SAN 184.03
-SAF 184.03


Stereo Integrity:
-HST-15


Added bonus for me at least, the sub is nestled safely out of the reach of adventurous toddlers.

Dark gray - Devastator, light gray - ported enclosure
As you can see there are efficiency gains across a wide range 20 - 110Hz, (though I would probably cross at 80Hz to 100Hz) more efficiency in the upper mid bass range than the lower end. As John Madden would say in Madden 96, “That outta clean out the sinuses!”


Simulation based on the 21DS115






Can it be tuned lower?

Chrapladm
"And now that I think of it. Just leave the cabinet the way it is. If you want a lower tune plug a port. 2 ports is about 15.75hz roughly. When just plugging the end of the port that gives an extra 10 Liters roughly also. And because I know someone will ask, a single port is about 11hz tune. Doesnt look very good with the 15SWS.

So I would keep the cabinet the dimensions and just build yourself some small port plugs if you want. This is what I will be doing. No need to change cutlist or any dimensions
."


The enclosure is not all that large relative to a tapered horn design or a lot of other things around here





Just give me the darn cut list! Here it is! Do not forget to take a notch out of the front port braces leaving space for excursion. Two full sheets of MDF and five 2”x4”s are all that is required.





















Assembly, we suggest building from the side, then from the front towards the back. Attach the front panel and top. Use lots of glue/loctite, this needs to be airtight.


















Brad suggestion, not scale.
































Attach the bracing assembly all as one unit. A lot of weight or some long screws might come in handy. If you want the hatch to sit flush, take the height of the gasket off of the 2x4s on the upper half of the bracing assembly.





Attach the back panel, add the sub, add the speaker terminal, attach wire and close the hatch. Next, test your neighbor's pain tolerance\structural integrity




Amp suggestion: An iNuke6000D/NX6000D will not have a problem driving two, one on each channel. The high pass filter should be set at 18Hz using the high shelf work around solution on the amp's DSP. There is not a preset filter for reducing the two peaks at the moment. The peaks should be around 20Hz and 70Hz. REW and the built in DSP will be able to clean up the peaks.



More detailed information is attached in the at the bottom of the post. This is a horn loaded design, making it airtight is crucial, use lots of glue/loctite.

Other note, this is still not field tested at the moment - “The only caveat on this one is that in Hornresp there are a couple of options for high inductance motors and low inductance motors. The 21DS115 is tricky because it is somewhere in between. As a result, the final response may be a little different than the model. No biggie, it would just need a little EQ. The big increase in efficiency in the upper bass would remain in any case. I figured that I would mention this, just in case the response ends up a little different than the model.” John

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Devastator

-John
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Stormbreaker a B&C 21DS115 Subwoofer Solution | Wisconsin Home Theater Meet Thread
You can always turn it down, but you can only turn it up so much.
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Last edited by Red Five; 01-03-2019 at 10:26 AM.
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post #2 of 122 Old 12-06-2018, 11:09 AM
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Let the Devastation Begin!
Cool name @Red Five , liking it
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post #3 of 122 Old 12-06-2018, 11:41 AM
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Interesting! It's great to have another option!

John is the man!!

@LTD02
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______________________________________________
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Past Builds: 24" LMS-5400 cube, Anarchy 25Hz Tapped Horn, Danley DTS-10 kit, BFM AutoTuba, BFM THT, BFM THT-LP
Joe's LOWARHORN build, Dual LMS-5400 Ultra Endtables build
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post #4 of 122 Old 12-06-2018, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

John is the man!!

@LTD02
No doubt, mad skills and super helpful!

I wonder what LTD02 means...

Long Term Destruction times 2 ?
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post #5 of 122 Old 12-06-2018, 12:02 PM
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Sweet. Thanks for the cutlist. I think i will put one of these together before the end of the month/ early Jan.
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post #6 of 122 Old 12-06-2018, 12:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Please add some build pictures when you do

Stormbreaker a B&C 21DS115 Subwoofer Solution | Wisconsin Home Theater Meet Thread
You can always turn it down, but you can only turn it up so much.
7.1.4 | Yamaha A3070 | Crown XLS 1502 | iNuke 3000 DSP | 2x Aphex 124A | 2x Bic EV15 | 7x Bic FH6 LCR | 2x Bic FH65-B | Sub 21" Stormbreaker | Epson 5010e | 120" DIY AT Screen
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post #7 of 122 Old 12-06-2018, 01:54 PM
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Make sure you build the hatch hole large enough to fit the driver through.

The cutlist will only work with MDF for anyone looking. You won't get two 24" panels out of plywood.


I'm curious to see a measurement once one of these is up and running. I wonder what if any benefit there would be to angle the panel in front of the driver to make this more similar to the skhorn.
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post #8 of 122 Old 12-06-2018, 02:38 PM
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What's going on in the picture with the red circle and the one immediately after it? (Sorry if that's a stupid question.)

Also, what material do you recommend for a gasket to seal up the hatch?

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post #9 of 122 Old 12-06-2018, 02:47 PM - Thread Starter
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The red circle is showing brads coming in at an angle to hold the panel in place. You can't come at it flush due to the brace on the other side.



I forgot what the gasket tape suggestion is for the 21DS115, I have a lot left over from the first sub project. I picked it up on Parts Express.
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Stormbreaker a B&C 21DS115 Subwoofer Solution | Wisconsin Home Theater Meet Thread
You can always turn it down, but you can only turn it up so much.
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post #10 of 122 Old 12-06-2018, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue View Post
What's going on in the picture with the red circle and the one immediately after it?
It looks like screws driven at an angle.

I could be wrong...
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post #11 of 122 Old 12-06-2018, 02:53 PM - Thread Starter
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To speed up assembly I picked up a brad nailer cheap. Brads and Premium Loctite 3X is what I am planning on using for assembly after conversing with John. Drilling and counter sinking takes a lot of time. I did that on my first sub

Stormbreaker a B&C 21DS115 Subwoofer Solution | Wisconsin Home Theater Meet Thread
You can always turn it down, but you can only turn it up so much.
7.1.4 | Yamaha A3070 | Crown XLS 1502 | iNuke 3000 DSP | 2x Aphex 124A | 2x Bic EV15 | 7x Bic FH6 LCR | 2x Bic FH65-B | Sub 21" Stormbreaker | Epson 5010e | 120" DIY AT Screen
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post #12 of 122 Old 12-06-2018, 03:41 PM
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What happens to the tune and efficiency if you extend the port? For example, you could take the port along the bottom to the back wall and then go up the back wall rather than the baffle wall.

Mike
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post #13 of 122 Old 12-06-2018, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samps View Post

Make sure you build the hatch hole large enough to fit the driver through.

The cutlist will only work with MDF for anyone looking. You won't get two 24" panels out of plywood.


I'm curious to see a measurement once one of these is up and running. I wonder what if any benefit there would be to angle the panel in front of the driver to make this more similar to the skhorn.
with no other changes, reducing throat to about 1/2 the size of the exit has the effect of pushing the efficiency peak up in frequency. i kind of thought that it was good where it was, so i didn't change it. different shapes and lengths have various advantages and disadvantages.
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post #14 of 122 Old 12-06-2018, 08:40 PM
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Please add some build pictures when you do
And any observations/measurements or impressions after testing when complete, even if only purely subjective.

Excellent design. @LTD02 is mad helpful to those on this forum.


"I forgot what the gasket tape suggestion is for the 21DS115, ..."

FWIW, gasket tape can be bought at hardware stores. Ace, Home Depot, etc.

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post #15 of 122 Old 12-06-2018, 08:42 PM
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What happens to the tune and efficiency if you extend the port? For example, you could take the port along the bottom to the back wall and then go up the back wall rather than the baffle wall.

Mike
extending the port will lower the tune. this one is around 19hz.
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post #16 of 122 Old 12-06-2018, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JESAL View Post
It looks like screws driven at an angle.

I could be wrong...
that's just to show one approach of brad nailing the section being added to the section that is already in place. those nails are NOT to scale!
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post #17 of 122 Old 12-07-2018, 04:58 AM
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any chance for the hornresp inputs to determine suitability for other drivers?
i think this is a cool use of a 1/4 wave resonator.
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post #18 of 122 Old 12-07-2018, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
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extending the port will lower the tune. this one is around 19hz.
What trade offs would result from lowering the tune?

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post #19 of 122 Old 12-07-2018, 09:01 AM
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any chance for the hornresp inputs to determine suitability for other drivers?
i think this is a cool use of a 1/4 wave resonator.
I'm down for this too.

Also how would this be sim'd with a tapered front chamber in hornresp?
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post #20 of 122 Old 12-07-2018, 09:29 AM
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I'm going to build one Devastator.

Anyone here have an experience with OSB Plywood for subs?
Just wondering if it will hold up to the devastation

I have half a dozen OSB sheets in my garage.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/23-32-in...5931/206441714
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post #21 of 122 Old 12-07-2018, 09:30 AM
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OSB Description says: This engineered wood product has no core voids, knots or splits
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If we find some other drivers that are suitable I will happily add them to the OP

Stormbreaker a B&C 21DS115 Subwoofer Solution | Wisconsin Home Theater Meet Thread
You can always turn it down, but you can only turn it up so much.
7.1.4 | Yamaha A3070 | Crown XLS 1502 | iNuke 3000 DSP | 2x Aphex 124A | 2x Bic EV15 | 7x Bic FH6 LCR | 2x Bic FH65-B | Sub 21" Stormbreaker | Epson 5010e | 120" DIY AT Screen
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post #23 of 122 Old 12-07-2018, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JESAL View Post
I'm going to build one Devastator.

Anyone here have an experience with OSB Plywood for subs?
Just wondering if it will hold up to the devastation

I have half a dozen OSB sheets in my garage.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/23-32-in...5931/206441714
my experience with OSB is that it can be brittle, especially at the glue joints. If you do decide to build one please stress test it and give us an update!
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post #24 of 122 Old 12-07-2018, 10:54 AM
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Thanks Trimlock for the info!
I will just use OSB for the two 48x30 side panels.
I have enough baltic birch to use for the rest

What is a good tress test, jumping on it?
Don't want to drop the box from the back of my truck and have it blow up
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post #25 of 122 Old 12-07-2018, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JESAL View Post
OSB Description says: This engineered wood product has no core voids, knots or splits
OSB flexes much more than Arauco or Baltic Birch ply does. If you use that, make sure you use extra bracing. And it is more brittle as Trimlock noted.

Personally I would look at a different material for a sub build of this size.
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post #26 of 122 Old 12-07-2018, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Trimlock View Post
I'm down for this too.

Also how would this be sim'd with a tapered front chamber in hornresp?
OD setup.
use Vrc etc to create ported section then use S1 et all to simulate the resonator. Can do a "cone compensation" tweak w/ vtc to get a little closer to reality on the sim. the ROAR over at diyaudio as well as the skhorn has been popularizing this kind of idea. this design, along with the roar use a straight 1/4 wave resonator while the skhorn uses a tapered style.


OSB should really only be done as a proof of concept style build. it delaminates, shreds and the one waxed/coated side can be problematic for certain glues.
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post #27 of 122 Old 12-07-2018, 10:25 PM
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Thanks for sharing your OSB experience
I don't want to do all this work and end up throwing it away
I will stick to BB plywood

Thanks again...
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post #28 of 122 Old 12-07-2018, 10:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VegaMan View Post
OD setup.
use Vrc etc to create ported section then use S1 et all to simulate the resonator. Can do a "cone compensation" tweak w/ vtc to get a little closer to reality on the sim. the ROAR over at diyaudio as well as the skhorn has been popularizing this kind of idea. this design, along with the roar use a straight 1/4 wave resonator while the skhorn uses a tapered style.


OSB should really only be done as a proof of concept style build. it delaminates, shreds and the one waxed/coated side can be problematic for certain glues.
Thanks a bunch. Yea I wanted to see if I could get the same "smoothed" top end like the SKHorn gets. Of course I'm sure you could just build half a SKHorn to get the same effect.


Really, OSB is a poor product, I use it as a flat surface to do glue ups and finishing on. I've also used it as a bed to do some router planing for my live edge projects I had and even with the weight of slabs you could see it lifting. I've used it successfully as a template though.
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post #29 of 122 Old 12-08-2018, 03:59 AM
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what driver options are possible for this cab,
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post #30 of 122 Old 12-08-2018, 04:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Blue View Post
What trade offs would result from lowering the tune?
cone excursion peaks a little above the tuning frequency for a ported cab.

as tuning is lowered, the driver has to move even further to produce the same output at those frequencies as compared with a higher tune. the result is a little loss of max output.

the tradeoff is very roughly 1db of lost output for each 1hz of lower tuning. again, very roughly.

Listen. It's All Good.
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