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post #1 of 82 Old 10-12-2016, 08:26 PM - Thread Starter
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8K is here! RED Epic-W unboxing




He shot this video in 6K and uploaded in 4K.
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post #2 of 82 Old 10-14-2016, 10:38 AM - Thread Starter
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http://www.red.com/products/weapon-8k

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For cinematographers, 8K resolution offers more than just incredible detail. It delivers countless possibilities for reframing, VFX (visual effects), motion stabilization, supersampling footage, and more. More resolution boils down to the ability to do more with your footage in production—all without having to reshoot.


The GH6 should have 8K by 2020.
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post #3 of 82 Old 10-14-2016, 12:15 PM
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Of course we have no 8K consumer displays.
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post #4 of 82 Old 10-14-2016, 05:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Ken, the 5K iMac came out in 2014 and I bet by 2020 Apple will have an 8K display along with Sony. The new V90 SDXC cards will be rated for 8K and youtube will have a ton of 4320p content by 2020. BTW you don't need an 8K display to play 4320p youtube videos, just a powerful PC.

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post #5 of 82 Old 10-14-2016, 08:22 PM
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Joe, I've got the 5K IMac, so I'm 5/8ths of the way there.
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post #6 of 82 Old 10-14-2016, 10:49 PM
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The perfect forum for the news.
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post #7 of 82 Old 10-15-2016, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Sharp unveils 27-inch IGZO 8K display

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Of course we have no 8K consumer displays.
Foxconn-owned Sharp has unveiled a new monster of an IPS display panel at CEATEC Japan 2016. The display, which comes in at 27-inches, boasts 8K resolution, and insane 7,680-by-4,320 pixel ratio with pixel density that rivals modern smartphones.Along with the insane pixel density, the new Sharp panel features a refresh rate of 120Hz, HDR support, and brightness reaching 1,000cd square m. Needless to say, the display’s picture quality hasn’t failed to impress on the showroom floor in Japan’s Chiba prefecture. It’s obvious, however, once you step to the side and view the display’s massive Xbox One S-eque back panel, that the unit is still knee-deep in its prototyping stage.
It’s also important to note that the unit requires multiple cables in order to drive the panel’s 120Hz refresh rate at 8K. DisplayPort 1.4, which was ratified by the VESA standards body earlier this year, supports 8K resolutions, but maxes out at 60Hz, and that’s when using the new Display Stream Compression.


An 85-inch 8K Sharp panel was also being displayed on the showroom floor, and eye witness accounts noted the strikingly lifelike appearance of the video on screen. Having an 85-inch 8K panel is impressive, but having an 8K panel in a 27-inch form factor would result in quite the experience for Mac users, as the 326 PPI is the same pixel density that you’ll find on an iPhone 7. It should be noted that 27-inches is a number that Apple seems to like, as both its larger iMacs and discontinued ThunderBolt displays were featured in this size.

It’s still up in the air with regards to potential Mac support for 8K displays in the future. DisplayPort 1.3 can support 8K displays running at 30Hz right now, but ThunderBolt 3 uses DP 1.2, which lacks support for 8K. However, ThunderBolt 3 supports 40Gbps, significantly more bandwidth than DisplayPort 1.2, so it’s hard to say exactly what we’ll see. Apple’s support for high resolution displays has lately been sort of a mess, and let’s be honest, 8K displays are still several years away from being widely available and affordable.
It’s a great time to go 4K

But even if 8K isn’t in the immediate cards, there are still major benefits to going with a higher resolution 4K display if your Mac supports it. There’s a decent selection of 4K monitors available right now, and these can significantly help productivity if your type of work, namely video and photo editing, can benefit from the additional real estate.
http://9to5mac.com/2016/10/07/sharp...sity-iphone-7/


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post #8 of 82 Old 10-15-2016, 03:00 PM
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Joe, I actually saw an 8K Sharp at CES. Although it was certainly sharp, its overall PQ left a lot to be desired. It wasn't even close to my 65" UHD OLED in terms of overall PQ.

These generally turn out to be prototypes, with no real intention to sell to the public. They're more a statement that says "Look what we can do". I think we're quite a ways away from a large screen, 8K, display sold to the public.
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post #9 of 82 Old 10-15-2016, 04:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Ken, I agree, I don't think we will see any consumer 8K displays until 2020 when the Tokyo Olympics will be the first shot in 8K and Sony with Panasonic said they will have 8K TVs and cameras by then.
http://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Comp...-tech-alliance
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post #10 of 82 Old 10-15-2016, 04:57 PM - Thread Starter
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post #11 of 82 Old 10-15-2016, 07:56 PM
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The technological leap required to do 8K end to end wouldn't be too daunting considering the current progress in sensor, IP chip and display panel technologies. Desktop computer chips are already almost there but the problem would be the steep diminishing of returns viewers are going to get compared to the current 4K. On the acquisition and post production side it will work better as it will allow more headroom for everyone involved to work with and to be more sloppy (4 times more?) and still able to get away with it.

The other question is whether the framerate will go up to 100/120fps along with that lofty resolution too. Just hope it won't be stuck too long like we at the consumer/prosumer level have been at these sorry 24/25/30fps at 4K for some time now. Not many consumers or even prosumers can afford the Sony FS7 or Canon 1DX Mk2 of course.
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post #12 of 82 Old 10-19-2016, 11:05 PM
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The Red Epic-W and Weapon 8k are beautiful, an enormous upgrade over the Dragon 6k, much lower noise, higher sensitivity. I could easily see adding the Weapon to my kit, but frankly, it's not needed at this time and when it finally is, there will be other choices and offerings to consider. As well, I don't want to switch to the Red Code workflow, or upgrade computers to handle 8k now, when 2 years from now when 8k is more mainstream the camera and computer would be two years out of date.

Sony is offering an upgraded raw recorder for my F55 that records 4k-DCI at 120/fps and 30 seconds of cache recording. Also includes a new codec X-OCN (extended, original camera negative), visually equal to 16 bit linear raw with 35% lower bit rate. With 2 high speed memory cards and reader will set you back about $10k. For that amount of coin I could buy the Red Raven 4.5k kit with memory mags, raw recording, battery, display. Interesting times for sure. Very impressed with Red. They have been taking over in cinema and will continue to grab share from Arri, put a fork in Canon, abandon Panasonic and Sony to fight it out for sports and broadcast markets.

The Red Weapon and Epic-W bring more than just pixels to the party. They are game changers. Well done James Jannard.

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post #13 of 82 Old 10-20-2016, 01:37 AM
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Can't imagine how impressive 4K/100,120fps would be like. Not so long ago I tested 4K/50p XAVC on the Sony FS7 and just a few days ago on the Canon 1DX Mk2 with that silly workflow and it just made me think how unfortunate we were to have been stuck with the slower framerates. In the ages of DV and later, HD this would have been a lot more tolerable but with the sheer resolution of 4K, the hassles of avoiding the more visible judder have gotten to me and perhaps many other shooters.
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post #14 of 82 Old 10-20-2016, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by P&Struefan View Post
Can't imagine how impressive 4K/100,120fps would be like. Not so long ago I tested 4K/50p XAVC on the Sony FS7 and just a few days ago on the Canon 1DX Mk2 with that silly workflow and it just made me think how unfortunate we were to have been stuck with the slower framerates. In the ages of DV and later, HD this would have been a lot more tolerable but with the sheer resolution of 4K, the hassles of avoiding the more visible judder have gotten to me and perhaps many other shooters.
But for now, the only application for 4k/120 fps is slo-mo. Slow frame rate judder may be worse with 4k although as much at play is the slow sensor readout of 4k cmos skew. The F55 global shutter is unique as is the rotary shutter on the F65. AFAIK, still the only two 4k cams completely absent of the artifact.

Personally, I like the cinema look of well shot 24 fps. If I don't like the look then it's not well shot! 60FPS is very reality like, video-ish, thus soap opera effect. Almost all directors agree on this, but I acknowledge home theater enthusiasts have strong opinions to the contrary and would like to see higher frame rates.

Shooting 24 fps is sort of like playing Peyton Manning, who would want to risk being the losing coach in the super bowl because you kept Manning on the bench?

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post #15 of 82 Old 10-21-2016, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
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But for now, the only application for 4k/120 fps is slo-mo. Slow frame rate judder may be worse with 4k although as much at play is the slow sensor readout of 4k cmos skew. The F55 global shutter is unique as is the rotary shutter on the F65. AFAIK, still the only two 4k cams completely absent of the artifact.

Personally, I like the cinema look of well shot 24 fps. If I don't like the look then it's not well shot! 60FPS is very reality like, video-ish, thus soap opera effect. Almost all directors agree on this, but I acknowledge home theater enthusiasts have strong opinions to the contrary and would like to see higher frame rates.

Shooting 24 fps is sort of like playing Peyton Manning, who would want to risk being the losing coach in the super bowl because you kept Manning on the bench?
I would say it all depends on the character of the content. If it's a theatrical movie, I'd agree, I wouldn't want the SOE and high frame rate. In fact, I avoid the SOE with my own displays in terms of using motion processing. However if it's a video of a trip, I'm all for higher frame rates since that 'video look' is precisely what I'm after. So for me at least, it's really dependent upon the content.
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post #16 of 82 Old 10-21-2016, 07:34 PM
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It is also highly dependent on what you shoot. In fully set up environment where the shooter can control almost anything and a retake is possible 24p can be shot to look great. In event, documentary, indoor or outdoor sports/recreational activities where you could only foresee but can't dictate the elements of what you are shooting, HFR always helps. You can do only so much with controlled camera movement and such but this is just half of the videography. You may pan perfectly but if the subject(s) moves too fast or at angle not steep enough to lessen the speed as measured across the frame you definitely have judder in the footage. The filtration too has to be precise otherwise you are forced to be off from the ideal 180° degree equivalent or slightly higher shutter and the judder shows up. A few cameras such as the Sony FS5 and the PXW 160/180 can cope with this effortlessly with their electronic continuously variable ND but for the rest of the cameras out there it's just more work and more things to fiddle with especially the DSLRs and mirrorlesses.
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post #17 of 82 Old 10-22-2016, 01:31 AM
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Quote:
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I would say it all depends on the character of the content. If it's a theatrical movie, I'd agree, I wouldn't want the SOE and high frame rate. In fact, I avoid the SOE with my own displays in terms of using motion processing. However if it's a video of a trip, I'm all for higher frame rates since that 'video look' is precisely what I'm after. So for me at least, it's really dependent upon the content.
Panning shots in something like Ken Burns' docs look horrible in 24p. Even with ultra-slow panning they still stutter. Agreed, docos need higher frame rate. Most video journalism have been using 60i/60p for quite some time, "real" documentaries just need to catch up.

Kinda funny that when the DVX100 was released 12 years ago it was praised exactly for having 24p. So many great docos have been shot with it.

I guess at that time the reason for shooting 24p was easier filmout. I watched Ghenghis Blues transferred from 60i to 24fps for cinemas and I could see interlacing and ghosting at times. But nowadays with multi-frame-rate digital projectors there is no need to cling to the same rate as 1930-ies Hollywood movies.
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post #18 of 82 Old 10-22-2016, 02:36 AM
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Unless you like it.

Video journalism have been using 30p/60i in the US, Canada and Japan. In the rest of the world 25p/50i. High frame rates like 50/60p have always been and still are very rarely used.

And its not because the creators are stupid, idiots, nostalgic or what ever reasons some forum users like to dream. It is because people like it. Simple as that.
Many stations require it, sure, but its all based on what people like.

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post #19 of 82 Old 10-23-2016, 05:20 PM
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Video journalism have been using 30p/60i in the US, Canada and Japan. In the rest of the world 25p/50i. High frame rates like 50/60p have always been and still are very rarely used.
60i is the same is 60p motion-wise. Similarly, 50i is the same as 50p, therefore high image rate has been used for ages for SD TV. The only difference is that in the olden times high-image rate was limited to TV, now it can be projected in a movie theater.
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post #20 of 82 Old 10-25-2016, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
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I would say it all depends on the character of the content. If it's a theatrical movie, I'd agree, I wouldn't want the SOE and high frame rate. In fact, I avoid the SOE with my own displays in terms of using motion processing. However if it's a video of a trip, I'm all for higher frame rates since that 'video look' is precisely what I'm after. So for me at least, it's really dependent upon the content.
Why would you not want HFR for a theatrical movie?

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Quote:
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Why would you not want HFR for a theatrical movie?
HFR with SOE is a non-starter for me in a theatrical movie. Moving from the look of film to the look of 'live' video, doesn't work for me. The filmic look helps maintain the suspension of reality that, at least for me.
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post #22 of 82 Old 10-25-2016, 01:16 PM
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I have also yet to see a HFR setup that works for movies. There's a reason why moviemakers don't shoot their movies at 60p, this has been available in both camereas and projection gear since the dawn of digital 2K. Just because someone figured 120 frames in 4K sound kinda hitech does not make it more suitable for film still...... The Hobbit @ HFR AND 3D must have been my most terrible cinematic endevour EVER!! 8K though; all in!!


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post #23 of 82 Old 10-25-2016, 01:22 PM
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post #24 of 82 Old 10-25-2016, 02:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Superlatives seem entirely inadequate in light of what I saw—it was astounding. At 120 fps, all movement—including moving objects and camera pans—was crystal clear with absolutely no visible strobing or motion blur. Of course, some will complain that it isn't "film-like," and a few people reported that it looked like video, but those same people were so impressed that it didn't matter to them, and they soon forgot about it. Instead, they were blown away by images never before seen in a commercial-cinema presentation—and so was I.

The image was very bright, especially the scenes in the desert of Iraq, which looked a bit blown out—an intentional effect, I'm sure. The black level was not terribly deep, but then again, there weren't many really dark shots in the clip we saw. Later, we were told that the footage was shot and protected for high dynamic range, so I expect the final version to have a much greater dynamic range, at least if it's shown in Dolby Cinemas.

Perhaps even more amazing to me was that I saw virtually no problems with the Dolby 3D glasses. Normally, I really dislike this technology because of reflections between the inner surface of the 3D glasses and the outer surface of my prescription glasses, which result in milky halos around the screen and double images. But I saw none of that in this case, and I'm not sure why. My best guess is because the image was so bright, though I was also told that the design of the glasses has been improved with better tuning of the filters to the wavelengths used for each eye.

Whatever the reason, it was easily the best, most comfortable 3D I've ever seen, with no "cardboard cutout" effect. It looked like I was actually watching the scene in the real world. More than one viewer commented that when someone crossed the screen in the near field, they thought it was someone in the audience, and I can certainly understand that misperception.
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Marques Brownlee just posted a photo of his 8K RED Cinema cameras that he uses for his youtube channel MKBHD !
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post #26 of 82 Old 02-02-2017, 01:06 PM
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Does 8K seem a bit much for a YouTube channel?
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post #28 of 82 Old 02-18-2017, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
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Does 8K seem a bit much for a YouTube channel?
Is that you Ken or has an evil imposter taken over your account?
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post #29 of 82 Old 02-19-2017, 08:31 AM - Thread Starter
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It took a few days before the full 8K video was processed by youtube.

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post #30 of 82 Old 02-19-2017, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
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Marques Brownlee just posted a photo of his 8K RED Cinema cameras that he uses for his youtube channel MKBHD !
Because 4K is not enough for the kind of stuff he shoots?
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