Forum Jump: 
 39Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #121 of 200 Old 01-07-2019, 03:10 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
markr041's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,402
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1131 Post(s)
Liked: 373
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Mark, wouldn't a phone still be necessary for the EV adjustments? You just wouldn't need to hold the phone, attached to the Osmo. I'm sure that's what you meant.
Yup. Just need to take the phone out to make adjustments, but not shoot with the Osmo attached to the phone, which makes it a much more awkward shooting experience. Maybe a future firmware update will allow all in-camera adjustments.
markr041 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #122 of 200 Old 01-07-2019, 03:26 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 32,696
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7028 Post(s)
Liked: 7657
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post
Yup. Just need to take the phone out to make adjustments, but not shoot with the Osmo attached to the phone, which makes it a much more awkward shooting experience. Maybe a future firmware update will allow all in-camera adjustments.
Yes, and I'm really hoping DJI, via a firmware update, can make the EV adjustments stick after a power off/on cycle. For me that would be huge and would minimize the number of phone attachments I need to do. Many clips look better with an EV value of -0.3. Sounds like a Sony, right?

Of course a change to all in-camera adjustments would obviate the need for any of this.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #123 of 200 Old 01-07-2019, 08:42 PM
Senior Member
 
luidoly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 442
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 88 Post(s)
Liked: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Yes, and I'm really hoping DJI, via a firmware update, can make the EV adjustments stick after a power off/on cycle. For me that would be huge and would minimize the number of phone attachments I need to do. Many clips look better with an EV value of -0.3. Sounds like a Sony, right?

Of course a change to all in-camera adjustments would obviate the need for any of this.
Hi Ken:
has anyone been able to check any improvements in the focusing after the new firmware update, or any of the other changes???
Thanks
Luis
luidoly is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #124 of 200 Old 01-07-2019, 09:09 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 32,696
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7028 Post(s)
Liked: 7657
Quote:
Originally Posted by luidoly View Post
Hi Ken:
has anyone been able to check any improvements in the focusing after the new firmware update, or any of the other changes???
Thanks
Luis
Luis, my sense after installing the new firmware is that it has somewhat improved the AF. I’m noticing it seems quicker to grab on to a new subject, particularly when focusing from near to far. There may also be a bit less focus breathing, but I’d need to check that more.

They added a few new features like a couple of additional frame rates, but nothing major.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #125 of 200 Old 01-08-2019, 09:11 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
markr041's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,402
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1131 Post(s)
Liked: 373
Osmo Pocket in Atlanta

markr041 is offline  
post #126 of 200 Old 01-09-2019, 12:09 AM
Senior Member
 
luidoly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 442
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 88 Post(s)
Liked: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post
Hi Mark:
The color and picture quality of this little gimbal /camera combo is unbelievable, this is bright sunlit and would probably call for an ND filter to keep the shutter speed at 1/60 of a second if you are shooting at 4K/30, are you strictly using Pro mode and making adjustments on the iPhone or in addition are you using any ND's ??? If you are using ND filters, what kind ??

Thank You
Luis
luidoly is online now  
post #127 of 200 Old 01-09-2019, 05:17 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 32,696
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7028 Post(s)
Liked: 7657
Luis, DJI will be releasing ND filters for the OP in the near future. As is true with many ND filters I’ve tried on my other cameras, I hope they don’t impact the beautiful color this unit is capable of. I believe other companies do have ND filters for the OP available now.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #128 of 200 Old 01-09-2019, 06:44 AM
Senior Member
 
luidoly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 442
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 88 Post(s)
Liked: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Luis, DJI will be releasing ND filters for the OP in the near future. As is true with many ND filters I’ve tried on my other cameras, I hope they don’t impact the beautiful color this unit is capable of. I believe other companies do have ND filters for the OP available now.
Hi Ken:
Oh yes, you are certainly right with the possible deterioration of colors inherited on these ND filters, it is worst with the cheap ND's, Having said that, I am generally pleased with the exposure in auto when shooting with the OP, but at times there is that clip that now and then benefits from an exp comp of -0.3 or -0.7 like you elucidated on previous post that really needs it, in addition to the fact that in bright sunlight providing good exposure in Auto it means you are running at shutter speeds of 1/1600 of a second with high ISO to compensate, if you can make a compromise with an ND filter that would take care of that for bright outdoor sunlight, you could probably resolve the exp comp dilemma.
will wait as to what Mark has to say about his technique, as I remember, he mention something about using the Pro mode most of the time.

Thanks,
Luis
luidoly is online now  
post #129 of 200 Old 01-09-2019, 09:22 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 32,696
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7028 Post(s)
Liked: 7657
Quote:
Originally Posted by luidoly View Post
Hi Ken:
Oh yes, you are certainly right with the possible deterioration of colors inherited on these ND filters, it is worst with the cheap ND's, Having said that, I am generally pleased with the exposure in auto when shooting with the OP, but at times there is that clip that now and then benefits from an exp comp of -0.3 or -0.7 like you elucidated on previous post that really needs it, in addition to the fact that in bright sunlight providing good exposure in Auto it means you are running at shutter speeds of 1/1600 of a second with high ISO to compensate, if you can make a compromise with an ND filter that would take care of that for bright outdoor sunlight, you could probably resolve the exp comp dilemma.
will wait as to what Mark has to say about his technique, as I remember, he mention something about using the Pro mode most of the time.

Thanks,
Luis
The problem with Pro mode is the usability in its current state. For me it's a real pain to dial in a given EV value, disconnect the phone and have that setting viable only for as long as I have the camera on. As soon as you turn the camera off and then back on again, the settings are lost. DJI is looking into it. I tend not to use full manual, because in run n gun shooting I just don't find it practical with the constant changes in lighting. Having the ability to adjust EV on the fly is ideal for me in many instances.

I'm really hoping that a future firmware update allows the use of Pro mode without the need for the phone and allows for the settings to be retained.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #130 of 200 Old 01-09-2019, 10:38 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
markr041's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,402
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1131 Post(s)
Liked: 373
markr041 is offline  
post #131 of 200 Old 01-09-2019, 07:47 PM
Senior Member
 
luidoly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 442
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 88 Post(s)
Liked: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
The problem with Pro mode is the usability in its current state. For me it's a real pain to dial in a given EV value, disconnect the phone and have that setting viable only for as long as I have the camera on. As soon as you turn the camera off and then back on again, the settings are lost. DJI is looking into it. I tend not to use full manual, because in run n gun shooting I just don't find it practical with the constant changes in lighting. Having the ability to adjust EV on the fly is ideal for me in many instances.

I'm really hoping that a future firmware update allows the use of Pro mode without the need for the phone and allows for the settings to be retained.
Hi Ken: Oh, I understand completely, that's why I called it a "dilemma", my shooting style is similar to yours, my time is frequently limited during travel and I strive for carrying the smaller and less equipment, in this particular case the iPhone defies the purpose of simplicity, still waiting for Mark's comment.
BTW take a look at this marvel of accessory for simplicity and future plans, it is fascinating the gamut of gadgets to ease the use and practicality of the OP

http://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=hWKLBHJ_RyM

http://www.youtube.com/redirect?red...0jD8pt7ZuIr4Eq

Thank You,
Luis
luidoly is online now  
post #132 of 200 Old 01-09-2019, 08:25 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
markr041's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,402
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1131 Post(s)
Liked: 373
Quote:
Originally Posted by luidoly View Post
Hi Mark:
The color and picture quality of this little gimbal /camera combo is unbelievable, this is bright sunlit and would probably call for an ND filter to keep the shutter speed at 1/60 of a second if you are shooting at 4K/30, are you strictly using Pro mode and making adjustments on the iPhone or in addition are you using any ND's ??? If you are using ND filters, what kind ??

Thank You
Luis
I set in Pro Mode, but auto (with noise reduction off), as I had not yet got the ND filters. I shot without any phone attached. This kit has arrived:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...BI%3A514&smp=Y

Easy to put on filters - magnetic without any ring to install - and weigh nothing. They have made ND filters for a while, and have a good reputation for quality (multi-coated, etc.) So, then pick the right filter for light conditions, set to 1/60th, and shoot. Also one can shoot at 4K 60P; then you get smoother motion even if the shutter speeds are high.

Ideally I would also shoot with ev set to some minus figure, but in post when I add a curve to reduce highlights, it looks fine.

Last edited by markr041; 01-09-2019 at 08:30 PM.
markr041 is offline  
post #133 of 200 Old 01-09-2019, 08:54 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 32,696
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7028 Post(s)
Liked: 7657
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post
I set in Pro Mode, but auto (with noise reduction off), as I had not yet got the ND filters. I shot without any phone attached. This kit has arrived:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...BI%3A514&smp=Y

Easy to put on filters - magnetic without any ring to install - and weigh nothing. They have made ND filters for a while, and have a good reputation for quality (multi-coated, etc.) So, then pick the right filter for light conditions, set to 1/60th, and shoot. Also one can shoot at 4K 60P; then you get smoother motion even if the shutter speeds are high.

Ideally I would also shoot with ev set to some minus figure, but in post when I add a curve to reduce highlights, it looks fine.
And therein lies the problem for me. The only way to dial in an EV value is to attach the phone. Like you, I don’t shoot with the phone attached. So I attach the phone, set the value and detach the phone. But as soon as you power off the camera, there goes your EV value as it goes back to default. In a typical day I power my camera on & off multiple times.

So your only choice is to keep the camera on longer than you’d want, constantly redock the phone and reset your EV or forego setting the EV value and just shoot. However in my testing there have been too many times where the output looks much better with a -.3 or -.7 EV, that I really don’t want to shoot at default. I think this is particularly important with a small sensor whose DR you don’t want to push.

I’ve tried reducing highlights in post, but too many times the detail was lost in the overexposed areas due to the limited DR of the sensor. Dropping highlights in these cases just minimizes the glare.

I’m hopeful that DJI implements an easy fix to make your preferred settings stick. This would minimize the number of times you’d need to redock the camera & phone. Of course enabling the dialing in of settings without the need for the phone would be the best fix.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #134 of 200 Old 01-09-2019, 09:15 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
markr041's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,402
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1131 Post(s)
Liked: 373
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
And therein lies the problem for me. The only way to dial in an EV value is to attach the phone. Like you, I don’t shoot with the phone attached. So I attach the phone, set the value and detach the phone. But as soon as you power off the camera, there goes your EV value as it goes back to default. In a typical day I power my camera on & off multiple times.

So your only choice is to keep the camera on longer than you’d want, constantly redock the phone and reset your EV or forego setting the EV value and just shoot. However in my testing there have been too many times where the output looks much better with a -.3 or -.7 EV, that I really don’t want to shoot at default. I think this is particularly important with a small sensor whose DR you don’t want to push.

I’ve tried reducing highlights in post, but too many times the detail was lost in the overexposed areas due to the limited DR of the sensor. Dropping highlights in these cases just minimizes the glare.

I’m hopeful that DJI implements an easy fix to make your preferred settings stick. This would minimize the number of times you’d need to redock the camera & phone. Of course enabling the dialing in of settings without the need for the phone would be the best fix.
I don't think the DR is actually less than that of any other camera with the same size sensor, or actually much less than 1" sensor cameras. The issue is that there is no gradual drop-off of highlights like there is on Sony cameras, for example. So, the highlights are harsh. That is why the promised Cine D will help a lot. I don't disagree that having a way to set ev in camera is needed too.

When I shoot at night, I just use the phone attached, since no one can see me anyway. Then I set the ev to -2.0 or shoot manually.
markr041 is offline  
post #135 of 200 Old 01-10-2019, 06:24 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 32,696
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7028 Post(s)
Liked: 7657
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post
I don't think the DR is actually less than that of any other camera with the same size sensor, or actually much less than 1" sensor cameras. The issue is that there is no gradual drop-off of highlights like there is on Sony cameras, for example. So, the highlights are harsh. That is why the promised Cine D will help a lot. I don't disagree that having a way to set ev in camera is needed too.

When I shoot at night, I just use the phone attached, since no one can see me anyway. Then I set the ev to -2.0 or shoot manually.
I totally agree that the DR is no worse than other cameras with the same chip size. As crazy as this sounds, I did an A/B with my wife’s RX100vi and both of us preferred the picture of the OP (she didn’t know which was which when I showed her). Although the DR of the RX was somewhat better, and there was a bit more detail in the RX (only visible when you got close to the 77” screen, not at our normal seating distance where detail looked identical), the color, stability and 4K60p combined to present a more pleasing image on the OP.

I’m not saying the OP has a technically ‘better’ picture than the RX, but in many ways it was a more pleasing picture.

We agree that being able to adjust EV in-camera is beneficial, but until then DJI needs to find a solution to having an EV setting, set via the phone, stick after power cycles. That’s my major issue right now. I can better control actual highlight detail with EV setting adjustments than I can in post, but I need for those EV settings to stick and not be volatile.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #136 of 200 Old 01-10-2019, 01:48 PM
Mark Henninger
 
imagic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 14,657
Mentioned: 383 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8266 Post(s)
Liked: 14538
When I ran out of room in my bag and had to choose something to get rid of to make some more space, the choice was obvious. This so-called fourth-axis stabilizer is a joke. It was not even worth dragging it back home so I could do Amazon return, the space in my backpack was worth more.

Ungermann likes this.

Mark Henninger, Senior Editor at AVS Forum
imagic is online now  
post #137 of 200 Old 01-10-2019, 09:54 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Ungermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 5,117
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 738 Post(s)
Liked: 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post
Cinematic because there is cloudy weather in NY? I bet that all the lovers of Super8 would call this not cinematic because Super8 cameras did not have stabilizer. ;-)
Ungermann is offline  
post #138 of 200 Old 01-11-2019, 03:01 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
markr041's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,402
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1131 Post(s)
Liked: 373
Testing a 16X ND Filter + PL at 4K 60P

Smooth motion? Color? Exposure?



The filter combo (Freewell) has no effect on gimbal stabilioty and you can store the camera with the filter on in the case.
markr041 is offline  
post #139 of 200 Old 01-11-2019, 04:20 PM
Senior Member
 
luidoly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 442
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 88 Post(s)
Liked: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post
Smooth motion? Color? Exposure?

http://youtu.be/HQkz1k5fvhw


The filter combo (Freewell) has no effect on gimbal stabilioty and you can store the camera with the filter on in the case.
Interesting video, overall exposure seems less over exposed with good contrast and good detail in the blacks, some improvement in the highlights, good impact in color density but not oversaturated, stabilization as expected SUPERB. Bright sunlight situation, was the 16ND filter sufficient to adjust shutter speed to1/60 of a sec with ProMode???? Can you be more explicit with your settings with the use of the filters ???

Thanks,
Luis
luidoly is online now  
post #140 of 200 Old 01-11-2019, 05:39 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
markr041's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,402
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1131 Post(s)
Liked: 373
Quote:
Originally Posted by luidoly View Post
Interesting video, overall exposure seems less over exposed with good contrast and good detail in the blacks, some improvement in the highlights, good impact in color density but not oversaturated, stabilization as expected SUPERB. Bright sunlight situation, was the 16ND filter sufficient to adjust shutter speed to1/60 of a sec with ProMode???? Can you be more explicit with your settings with the use of the filters ???

Thanks,
Luis
I agree with your observations, some of the effects on color and contrast coming from the PL filter. For 60P, the 180 rule calls for a 1/120th shutter speed. The 16X ND filter reduces exposure by 4 stops. My experiences is that at 100 ISO, the auto shutter speed would have been 1/1600th - 1/2000th. So, I think the actual shutter speed was between 1/60th and 1/120th. I set everything to auto. Ideally, one would set the shutter at 1/120th, and let auto ISO take care of exposure, using the appropriate ND. For 4K 30P, one would in bright sunlight use the 32X ND and set the shutter at 1/60th.
markr041 is offline  
post #141 of 200 Old 01-11-2019, 06:02 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Ungermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 5,117
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 738 Post(s)
Liked: 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post
For 60P, the 180 rule calls for a 1/120th shutter speed.
AFAIK, for 60i/60p standard shutter speed has been 1/60, not 1/120. Not that it really matters much in this thread.
Ungermann is offline  
post #142 of 200 Old 01-11-2019, 06:17 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
markr041's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,402
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1131 Post(s)
Liked: 373
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post
AFAIK, for 60i/60p standard shutter speed has been 1/60, not 1/120. Not that it really matters much in this thread.

Give a source, or at least the logic. What does "standard" even mean - best? most used (by whom)? If you Google this question, all the top responses are to follow the 180 rule even for 60P. That is NOT the way to get at the truth, of course, but neither is reading snide comments from cynical armchair savants.

Here is an informed discussion of the issue by practicing professionals (those who actually shoot video and many who earn from it).

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/open-dv-...speed-60p.html

Last edited by markr041; 01-11-2019 at 06:20 PM.
markr041 is offline  
post #143 of 200 Old 01-11-2019, 08:47 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Ungermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 5,117
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 738 Post(s)
Liked: 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post
Give a source, or at least the logic. What does "standard" even mean - best? most used (by whom)? If you Google this question, all the top responses are to follow the 180 rule even for 60P. That is NOT the way to get at the truth, of course, but neither is reading snide comments from cynical armchair savants.

Here is an informed discussion of the issue by practicing professionals (those who actually shoot video and many who earn from it).

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/open-dv-...speed-60p.html
Have you read the page that you linked to? From your link:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Kellett
1.Shoot at 50p 1/100, rendered to 50p, looks ok.
2.Shoot at 50p 1/100, rendered to 25p, (so i'm left with 25p 1/100) too much judder in pans and movement (me waving my arms).
3.Shoot at 50p 1/50, rendered to 50p, looks ok.
4.Shoot at 50p 1/50 rendered to 25p,(so i'm left with 25p 1/50) looks ok
5.Shoot at 25p 1/50, rendered as 25p, looks ok, looks exactly the same as 4.
6.Shoot at 50p 1/50, slowed to 50% in edit, rendered to 25p, looks ok
7.Shoot at 25p 1/50, slowed to 50% in edit, rendered to 25p, too much judder

So, i think 50p 1/50 is good for lots of adjustment in the edit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Evans
I shoot at 1/60 both for interlace and 60P
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Grunseth
For 100 years we have been trained that the motion rendering of a shutter speed between 1/48" and 1/60" looks normal. ... If you are shooting at 60 fps, with the intent of doing slow motion playback at 30 fps, you would want to use a 1/120" shutter speed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainer Listing
And just to add more from the capture end: 180 degrees is the theoretical maximum opening for a standard rotary focal plane (half-moon or butterfly) shutter in a film camera. For some reason this seems to have become bastardized into the "180 degree rule" we have today.
This is the second link after Wikipedia when searched for "traditional shutter speed for TV". http://www.cybercollege.com/tvp019.htm Do you see the word "normal" beside 1/60 bar?



"By setting a video camera to a "normal" shutter speed of 1/60th second (the time it takes to scan one video field in the NTSC standard), the electronic sampling is done at the maximum time allowed by the field rate of the TV system. This represents the maximum exposure possible with normal sampling."

You are welcome.
Tom Roper likes this.
Ungermann is offline  
post #144 of 200 Old 01-11-2019, 08:52 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
markr041's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,402
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1131 Post(s)
Liked: 373
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post
Have you read the page that you linked to? From your link:









This is the second link after Wikipedia when searched for "traditional shutter speed for TV". http://www.cybercollege.com/tvp019.htm Do you see the word "normal" beside 1/60 bar?



"By setting a video camera to a "normal" shutter speed of 1/60th second (the time it takes to scan one video field in the NTSC standard), the electronic sampling is done at the maximum time allowed by the field rate of the TV system. This represents the maximum exposure possible with normal sampling."

You are welcome.
LOL. This "normal" or "standard" is for *interlaced* tv (field, not frame), not relevant any more, outdated. We are shooting at 60 fps progressive. In any case, the point is you made a statement that was unscrutable, and it turns out, not relevant as well as not informative. The link I provided, in contrast, is informative, whether or not it supports me or anyone else. And, in fact, in real visual importance, the difference is negligible when you shoot at high frame rates.

Last edited by markr041; 01-11-2019 at 09:03 PM.
markr041 is offline  
post #145 of 200 Old 01-11-2019, 09:05 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 32,696
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7028 Post(s)
Liked: 7657
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post
Smooth motion? Color? Exposure?

http://youtu.be/HQkz1k5fvhw


The filter combo (Freewell) has no effect on gimbal stabilioty and you can store the camera with the filter on in the case.
Looking at this on my IPad, in terms of exposure, it now looks like what I get with the OP at an EV of -.3 or -.7. Highlights seem to be preserved better. In terms of motion, I’d have to look at this on my TV, as the IPad is never that revealing when it comes to motion.

What I’m not quite sure about is color fidelity. I’m not sure if the filter is providing a slightly warmer WB. Whenever I get a new ND or polarizing filter, I do a few clips with and without the filter. It’s rare when I find one that is 100% neutral. In either case I’m not picking up anything objectionable, so I’d guess the impact on color, if any, is relatively minor.

I’m questioning the timing of the release of filters from DJI, so I may just try these from Freewell. Have you noticed any impact on color?
Ken Ross is offline  
post #146 of 200 Old 01-11-2019, 09:16 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Ungermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 5,117
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 738 Post(s)
Liked: 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post
LOL. This "normal" or "standard" is for *interlaced* tv (field, not frame), not relevant any more, outdated. We are shooting at 60 fps progressive. In any case, the point is you made a statement that was unscrutable, and it turns out, not relevant as well as not informative. The link I provided, in contrast, is informative, whether or not it supports me or anyone else. And, in fact, in real visual importance, the difference is negligible when you shoot at high frame rates.
Unless you forgot, there is no difference between 60i and 60p when watched on progressive scan TV. Also, in the 1990s there were CRT TVs that upscaled incoming signal to 100 Hz progressive, although these were popular mostly in Europe - in the U.S. people watched blurry flickering mess of finger-thick scanlines (granted, with digital HDTV the U.S. overtook Europe, but is slipping back again with pitiful 5 Mbit/s OTA rates, while Europe is switching to 1080p50 using H.265, but I am digressing). In any case, 60 fields per second or 60 frames per second provide the same motion - that is 60 images per second. Thus, looks practically the same. Thus, the same rules work.

In any case, the quotations that I friendly provided for you mention 50p and 60p, not interlace.

As I said two posts ago, it really does not matter much in this thread, it was merely a passing comment, but you preferred to make an argument. The joke is on you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post
The link I provided, in contrast, is informative, whether or not it supports me or anyone else.
Huh? Could as well quote Trump. Because why quoting for providing support? Can just quote anything for the sake of quoting.
Ungermann is offline  
post #147 of 200 Old 01-11-2019, 09:23 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 32,696
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7028 Post(s)
Liked: 7657
My experience shooting at 4K60p is that shutter speed is a bit less important than at 30p or 24p. IOW you can get away with higher shutter speeds while still avoiding the staccato look that most dislike. Add to that, if you’re watching on a relatively new 4K TV, by using the various iterations of frame doubling (called ‘clear’, ‘smooth’ etc. depending on the manufacturer), you can essentially eliminate any vestiges of motion issues.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #148 of 200 Old 01-11-2019, 09:33 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Ungermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 5,117
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 738 Post(s)
Liked: 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Add to that, if you’re watching on a relatively new 4K TV, by using the various iterations of frame doubling (called ‘clear’, ‘smooth’ etc. depending on the manufacturer), you can essentially eliminate any vestiges of motion issues.
15 years ago Faroudja, DVDO and HQV were all the rage. Now the fake frames thingamajig ruin the movies. These are just crutches for deficiencies in the video, be it interlace or low frame rate. At least the 3D bubble blew up.
Ungermann is offline  
post #149 of 200 Old 01-12-2019, 01:24 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
P&Struefan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,129
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 373 Post(s)
Liked: 128
It's funny that in these days and ages of various viewing platforms as well as levels of equipment we use so much of the effort we put into content creation can easily be lost in translation on the way to actual consumption. Cases in point, the judder from my own sloppy handling of the shots or the use of non-optimal shutter speeds can almost always be hidden, sometimes completely, when the content is watched on most flat panel TVs with frame doubling features like Ken mentioned e.g. Smooth Flow, X-motion or Motion Flow etc." that basically create more in-between interpolated frames to smooth out the judder within the screens' mostly 50-60Hz real refresh rates.

Meanwhile, my 1080/100p content shot with Sony cameras, despite being as pristinely smooth as it can look, can only be seen in all its smooth glory on my studio's 2.5K gaming monitor with a true 144Hz refresh rate usually via a Windows PC that's hooked up to this monitor. On my Mac editing system, not only does my 4K monitor have a max refresh rate at 60Hz, I'm not even sure if the outdated Mini Display Port version 1.2 on my Mac Pro supports anything above 60Hz at HD or 4K. The HDMI is only version 1.4, so laughably impotent on such an expensive, professional-oriented machine but I guess that's the way Apple does business!

So in pracice when I do the editing on my Mac the best I can see is effectively 50/60fps of the original footage at the max on the monitor and also in the project timeline. Final Cut Pro X has yet to support a real-time 100/120fps projects even at 1080p. Maybe Premier Pro or Resolve does but I don't use these.

Last edited by P&Struefan; 01-12-2019 at 09:29 AM.
P&Struefan is online now  
post #150 of 200 Old 01-12-2019, 05:40 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 32,696
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7028 Post(s)
Liked: 7657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post
15 years ago Faroudja, DVDO and HQV were all the rage. Now the fake frames thingamajig ruin the movies. These are just crutches for deficiencies in the video, be it interlace or low frame rate. At least the 3D bubble blew up.
True, frame doubling is bad for film, creating the dreaded SOE (soap opera effect), but it is perfectly fine for video. The avoidance of the look of video in film is desirable for most viewers, but that becomes a non-issue when that same technique is applied to video in the first place.

Does frame doubling make video look ‘more video’? Of course not. When performed properly, as most modern TVs are capable, there are essentially no ill-effects when applied to video. Using frame doubling, while shooting at 30p, can effectively remove a lack of smoothness, making the 30p look more like 60p. If that’s the look you like (I do), then that’s a good thing. Since these features can be enabled or disabled, then everyone can be happy.

‘Crutches’ for deficiencies in video? Well then, so are de-noisers, color correction, grading and a host of other long standing ‘fixes’ applied to video that can be made better. If we have the tools, why not use them?
Ken Ross is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Camcorders

Tags
4K/60p , camcorder , dji osmo pocket



Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off