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post #151 of 163 Old 12-06-2018, 04:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Bismarck440 View Post
I never liked this "Cable" "Direct" setup of the 101, 102... 201, 202 etc. I'm too old school, & never knew the joys of Pay TV, but I see you point, that would eliminate the local "branding" hypothetically it would not work I have 2 channel 10's that null each other out , but in theory that would make things simpler.
Yes, all ALL the "branding" that the affiliates and even some networks push ie: ABC likes its stations "branded as '7', 'ABC7'" etc..

Who cares! And most of them have not been on actual 7 in decades, nor ever in one case in my area.

Forget about channels in the sense you know and are familiar with, they are wiped away!

You have Bismkarck4440 zone tower it might use channels 20-26 to send out your "areas 'mux'." Then region over might use 27-33.

Then to keep things covered you might have several towers over the Bismarck zone that are on the same channels via Single Frequency Network, or SFN. Its whats called simulcast in LMR. Its been done for decades... I've mentioned how earlier. Its new to TV in 3.0...

Its no longer channel 10 in your area, or the next area.. .And having multiple towers on the same channel via SFN won't matter, except in the mush zone where you might need to take special considerations with more directional antennas...

Nationwide, NATIONWIDE the channels become, 101 ABC, 102, CBS, 103, Fox, 104, NBC, 105 PBS, 106 PBSrurgrats, 107, PBS Create, 110 News 111 Sports1 112 Sports2 113 Sports3 116 WX, then we start 201 MeTV, 202, H&I, 203 Movies!. Basically things would be grouped alphabetically by media group... Luken, Weigel etc...

All the "local" stuff that some insist is of value will be on 110,111,112-114, 116... That would change by region basically the DMA's as used now... Combine all those 4-5-+ ops into one local op.. do what ever on them... You could even do things like BBC Cygwern but it would be what ever for that region sort of like what some stations groups did in the past ie: Bob Braun was distributed in the CVG, CMH and regions around it ... outside that area you likely only know of him from some really, really crappy commercials for beds and some other junk at the time... I am sure there probably is stuff that could and/is created now regionally to have enough for a channel like that.... Likely I wouldn't watch it... but thats me....

The delivery model in the US is broken....

Now one of the DBS carriers has said no more launches...so one is done...which I am ok with loosing one and that particular one too! But loosing both I think would be a bad, very bad move. Lots of area even on ATSC 3.0 and a move to USVIew would likely still have reception issues that DBS is perfect to resolve.... same setup, just change the transmission mode... instead of terrestrial its Ku Sat...

Maybe ATSC 3.0 helps to fix some of the problems, and we then start to get the mindset back on how to receive TV... unfortunately we might be too far gone for that...

One thing is certain, we need to fix the delivery model. Its been outdated since the 90's...

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Last edited by DrDon; 12-06-2018 at 06:45 AM. Reason: Off topic discussion removed
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post #152 of 163 Old 12-06-2018, 09:18 AM
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I still use an antiquated flip phone, I have no interest or use, or a social life that commands a need for a monolithic device using such technology... I'm just saying.
You're the outlier in that. I just got a Note 9 that can get even more LTE bands than any previous phone I've had.

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There is certainly a public good in having better cell service and more competition. But there's also a public good in having adequate OTA broadcast spectrum for free TV. With respect to the 600 MHz band specifically, I never felt the former outweighed the latter

The 700 MHz band was different. There was clearly a lot of OTA spectrum going unused pre-transition, and some of the 700 MHz band went to uses that are clearly in the public interest.

As Sneals2000 noted, most of Europe has decided to allocate the 700 MHz band to non-OTA TV uses. But I think N. America is pretty unusual in chopping nearly another 100 MHz out of its OTA TV spectrum. (And yes, ATSC 3.0 promises eventually to alleviate the spectrum crunch - but this time, there will be no orderly transition, so getting there is going to be a mess.)
I agree with that. I think that the ATSC 3.0 transition should have been done first so that the extra 100mhz was available during the transition. Another option would have been to carve out giant circles around NYC, LA, Miami, Philly, DC, and a few other markets, keep 600mhz for the ATSC 3.0 transition there, and move it over to LTE use in rural areas. Of course you could argue that whitespace broadband should have been able to do effectively the same thing by re-using unused TV spectrum on a market by market basis.

EDIT: I think there's also a good argument to be made that poor management of existing wireless spectrum is partly to blame for the "shortage" of spectrum that was alleviated with the 600mhz band, and that fixed wireless broadband should be unnecessary if we didn't have a failed telecom policy that has failed to get gigabit internet access everywhere that the telephone and power systems go. If we had gigabit fiber everywhere, and it was easier to build more cell phone towers and densify the existing network with fiber backhauled sites, than less spectrum would be necessary.

The resulting ATSC 3.0 transition, if it ever happens, is going to be a royal mess in the major markets for 5-10 years until ATSC 1.0 can be nightlighted or retired entirely.
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post #153 of 163 Old 12-06-2018, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by TampBayOTA View Post
The delivery model in the US is broken....

Now one of the DBS carriers has said no more launches...so one is done...which I am ok with loosing one and that particular one too! But loosing both I think would be a bad, very bad move. Lots of area even on ATSC 3.0 and a move to USVIew would likely still have reception issues that DBS is perfect to resolve.... same setup, just change the transmission mode... instead of terrestrial its Ku Sat...

Maybe ATSC 3.0 helps to fix some of the problems, and we then start to get the mindset back on how to receive TV... unfortunately we might be too far gone for that...

One thing is certain, we need to fix the delivery model. Its been outdated since the 90's...
I wish they would change something, my reception of Los Angeles KNBC was wiped out by a low power station on channel 36, I used to be able to get CBS from Bakersfield but another low power station wiped that one out for me. I would be happy with KU DVB-S2 for delivery and have a couple of larger KU band dishes already.
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post #154 of 163 Old 12-06-2018, 08:52 PM
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I would be happy with KU DVB-S2 for delivery and have a couple of larger KU band dishes already.
So, aim one of your Ku dishes at the NBC network muxes and get all three timezone feeds.
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post #155 of 163 Old 12-06-2018, 09:39 PM
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So, aim one of your Ku dishes at the NBC network muxes and get all three timezone feeds.
That only works for NBC and I have a 1 meter Channel master aimed at 103°W. I don't have CBS OTA or KTLA the L.A. CW station.
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post #156 of 163 Old 12-07-2018, 09:53 AM
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The blame clearly falls AFAIC on all the 'post teenagers' with their toy idiot phones who are so attached to them, they would rather crawl under a rock and die if they would be without them. The ultimate easy way to do things.

PERIOD!
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Recording free OTA TV for 'time shifting' has been here since 1975. Will there be DVR's to do the same when ATSC3 obsoletes existing DVR's??
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post #157 of 163 Old 12-07-2018, 10:34 AM
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That only works for NBC and I have a 1 meter Channel master aimed at 103°W. I don't have CBS OTA or KTLA the L.A. CW station.
The CBS/CW network feeds are on one C-band mux. I know, doesn't help.

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post #158 of 163 Old 12-07-2018, 01:09 PM
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The CBS/CW network feeds are on one C-band mux. I know, doesn't help.
I used to have a couple of C-band dishes, I had an Orbitron 10' mesh that blew around in the wind too much and I also had a Birdview 8 1/2' Solid. The Birdview was just a little too small for the S2 feeds to lock reliably, maybe if I was in the middle of the country it would have been good enough. I even had a 4DTV receiver with the R5000HD mod, in a year or so when they finish installing gigabit internet in my town I will have a lot more options.
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post #159 of 163 Old 12-07-2018, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
You're the outlier in that. I just got a Note 9 that can get even more LTE bands than any previous phone I've had.
IF they made a UH8000H LTE mode, I would probably use that instead. Especially if it was the full 0.6W with a nice 3db antenna on it...


My phones are nice that they do all this whizzo stuff, but ultimately they could be a phone, and thats it and I wouldn't have an issue..



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I agree with that. I think that the ATSC 3.0 transition should have been done first so that the extra 100mhz was available during the transition. Another option would have been to carve out giant circles around NYC, LA, Miami, Philly, DC, and a few other markets, keep 600mhz for the ATSC 3.0 transition there, and move it over to LTE use in rural areas.
Depends on:


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EDIT: I think there's also a good argument to be made that poor management of existing wireless spectrum is partly to blame for the "shortage" of spectrum that was alleviated with the 600mhz band,
And who are you blaming this mismanagement of spectrum on???

The FCC... only as far as they caved to the CTIA to carve out more...

If you are blaming the CTIA and there members the cellco's... then YES they are responsbile for not properly "cellularizing" their operations.. Then that I would agree with ....There was no need for the 600Mhz Incentive auction, ecept for one alleged carrier who bet the farm on PCS and AWS frequencies instead of lower frequencies with better propagation and building penetration. Thus they needed to build more cells, and didn't.




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and that fixed wireless broadband should be unnecessary if we didn't have a failed telecom policy that has failed to get gigabit internet access everywhere that the telephone and power systems go. If we had gigabit fiber everywhere, and it was easier to build more cell phone towers and densify the existing network with fiber backhauled sites, than less spectrum would be necessary.
No disagreement that the US broadband policy is fubar'd behind hope, possibly....

And any one counting on fixed wireless as the solution to HSD in rural areas the carriers don't want to wire, is well on a fools errand.

FIber, best case, HFC, if we must... a wire of some form IS the solution.

No amount hype and 5G fairy dust is ever going to change that.


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The resulting ATSC 3.0 transition, if it ever happens, is going to be a royal mess in the major markets for 5-10 years until ATSC 1.0 can be nightlighted or retired entirely.
LAX NYC, CHI, and others have no concept of the mess coming... PHX and DFW will be good to watch if we can get UNBIASED data out. Which I highly doubt since there is nothing for the GP to use to monitor these tests, and those who probably get any test tuners will be NDA'd... and the Magical 3.0 KP9ME box is still a no decode ony thing last I read...which I was hoping to see better data from that, oh well. It just shows how KR and JP are skewed towards 2160, or 4096p v. what is likely for the US... JP weven has RF return via the IDBS system which they sold (snookered???) most of south america into! Weird... but I don;t think ATSC had a chance basically it was US tech and these countries want nothing from the US

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post #160 of 163 Old 12-08-2018, 05:19 AM
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It just shows how KR and JP are skewed towards 2160, or 4096p v. what is likely for the US... JP weven has RF return via the IDBS system which they sold (snookered???) most of south america into! Weird... but I don;t think ATSC had a chance basically it was US tech and these countries want nothing from the US
I think ATSC 1.0 OTA not adopting COFDM, and instead going with 8VSB, was the main issue for the rest of the world - other than Canada, Mexico and Korea mainly - not adopting ATSC 1.0.

Europe had already gained experience with OFDM with the DAB Digital Radio system, which had been in development since the late 80s, and there were some very promising early OFDM TV demonstrations that shows it had huge merit. DVB-T built on that to create a COFDM-based TV system where multi-path/ghosting helped, rather than hindered, reception, and where single-frequency network support was built into the standard (just as it is with DAB radio) SFNs make a huge amount of sense in areas where multiple transmitters carry bit-identical services, as they avoid having to use multiple frequencies to carry the same content (a technique previously caused to avoid interference). SFNs are far more efficient in RF terms IF your content isn't unique across every mux on every transmitter. They make relays and fill-in transmitters (common in Europe to remove areas of bad reception) massively more effective.

ISDB-T (the Japanese, and now South American system) and DTMB (the Chinese system) are all based on COFDM. DVB-T2, now in use across Europe as a second or third gen OTA system, is based on COFDM (and an even more advanced version). ATSC 3.0 is based on COFDM (and has a lot of similarity to DVB-T2 at the RF level I believe)

The reason the rest of the world didn't buy into ATSC 1.0 wasn't because it was a US standard, it was because it was seen as less suitable to the rest of the world's needs.

I think another major difference between the US and Europe and Japan is that none of the big US broadcasters have much in the way of R&D operations now. It seems to be left to manufacturers and regulators to develop new standards - with less broadcaster input? DVB-T/T2 (and DAB digital radio before) were significantly developed with input from the BBC R&D dept (as well as other public service broadcasters across Europe like RAI, SVT etc.) Similarly the new HDR HLG standard developed for broadcast is a BBC/NHK developed system.

NHK, the Japanese public service broadcaster, was instrumental in developing 1080i as an HD standard (1080i is simply an evolution of their 1980s HD standard), and they have worked with broadcast manufacturers and standards bodies continuously on HD, and now 4K and 8K.
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post #161 of 163 Old 12-08-2018, 07:27 AM
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I think ATSC 1.0 OTA not adopting COFDM, and instead going with 8VSB, was the main issue for the rest of the world - other than Canada, Mexico and Korea mainly - not adopting ATSC 1.0.
8VSB is basically a digital VSB signal... I call it lipstick on a pig.... Thats a highly and grossly over simplification but the system is basically the same thing we've done for 50+ years just slapped on some 01's... again thats a grossly over simplification..

CODFM aka DVBT would have been the better choice...

Afraid as for the adoption of things especially in BR etc.. it comes down to anti American sentiment, period.

Ain't NO US tech being adopted in those countries....period. Gringo go home is the mantra!

This is really no different than GSM v. CDMA.... The various PTT's of the day when they ruled EU and UK, but mostly especially FR, DE etc.. didn't like the US setting the road forward... GSM has issues v. CDMA in RF spectrum performance be it range and control channel, to various other things like spewing interference .... when not setup correctly... see : iDEN same TDMA garbage and the mess it created.. yes iDEN aka nexhell did things that exacerbated this... Yes, Qualcomm didn't make any friends either...

Regardless, politics played and plays a big part in the adoption of things, especially for tech designed in the US. Like it or not. We've seen it all before, like I said above. See GSM v. CDMA...

I don't disagree that ATSC is garbage in many ways from tech to its HUGE PATENT baggage... and 3.0 just makes it worse cough h265 cough...

At this point with a change in receivers needed would have been a great time to ditch ATSC and just go to DVB-T2 and be done... Its not going to happen, neither is bringing the delivery model into the 20th century aka US FreeView going to happen... at least not in my lifetime... maybe if 3.0 starts to bring in viewers who are fed up with the $$$ grab by CATV and DBS... Although there is lots of issues to face to reeducate US viewers on antennas etc... from the basic skills to the anti antenna marketing.. CATV basically use the "ugly" dish" mantra all the time... No its not an ugly dish, its a beautiful dish! The more the better!

IF 3.0 don't fix many of the issues in reception then viewers will just move to IPTV and call it a day.. and the CTIA and LMR will claim the rest of the spectrum...


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I think another major difference between the US and Europe and Japan is that none of the big US broadcasters have much in the way of R&D operations now. It seems to be left to manufacturers and regulators to develop new standards - with less broadcaster input? DVB-T/T2 (and DAB digital radio before) were significantly developed with input from the BBC R&D dept (as well as other public service broadcasters across Europe like RAI, SVT etc.) Similarly the new HDR HLG standard developed for broadcast is a BBC/NHK developed system.
This is true... the ATSC "org" is nothing but manufactures of stuff that want to see their patent encumbered crap in the standard, thus a way to make $$$$ from it.. The broadcasters are out of the R&D business and have been for years, decades at least on things that might improve things or set standards etc... They are simply advertising firms essentially now... R&D makes no $$$.. AD's spewed all over the shows....
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post #162 of 163 Old 12-11-2018, 12:37 AM
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post #163 of 163 Old 12-11-2018, 12:40 AM
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Originally Posted by videobruce View Post
The blame clearly falls AFAIC on all the 'post teenagers' with their toy idiot phones who are so attached to them, they would rather crawl under a rock and die if they would be without them. The ultimate easy way to do things.

PERIOD!
A phone is a powerful work tool. Phones rule!

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