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post #31 of 74 Old 07-22-2018, 07:28 AM
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Green Signal Lines and Trees

By PM:
Quote:
The GE antenna is mounted on a mast is only about 5' AGL. It could be that its seeing under the tree canopy and the Amazonbasics is looking into the canopy. At any rate the GE antenna picks up NBC (21) which I really wanted.
Tom
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrushApe
Yes you do have my permission to show this photo. I can clearly see the problem and probably why the GE ant worked better at 5' AGL on a temporary mast. It's most likely "looking" under the trees for a longer distance before it "sees" a tree. I plan on trimming the tree closest to my house as it really needs it but I don't know if it would help my antenna problem.
Thank you for the permission; here it is:



http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html
scroll down to Trees and UHF



Your reports from previous page for reference:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...903863608099a4



It looks like you can get everything you want with a UHF antenna aimed at 104 degrees if you can find an antenna location that avoids the nearby trees. If K38MY doesn't work for CBS, you can add a VHF antenna for KEYC.

If it isn't possible to find a location that avoids the nearby trees, you can try a UHF antenna with more gain than the GE antenna like an Antennas Direct DB4e with a preamp.

If the antenna is outside, the coax shield should be grounded with a grounding block that is connected to the house electrical system ground with 10 gauge copper wire for electrical safety and to reject interference. For further compliance with the electrical code (NEC), the mast should also be grounded in a similar manner to drain any buildup of static charge which will tend to discourage a strike, but the system will not survive a direct strike.

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post #32 of 74 Old 07-22-2018, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
It looks like you can get everything you want with a UHF antenna aimed at 104 degrees if you can find an antenna location that avoids the nearby trees. If K38MY doesn't work for CBS, you can add a VHF antenna for KEYC.
He will need VHF capabilities. K38MY hasnt been on air since end of last year. United Communications (KEYC's owner) couldnt reach an agreement with BENCO (owner of the co-op towers that the rest of the stations are on) so it was turned off Dec 21st
http://01900888.com/forum/45-lo...l#post55357146

They (KEYC) have a application to move K38MY to RF13 on the same tower as KEYC in Lewisville
http://enterpriseefiling.fcc.gov/da...25a16&goBack=N
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post #33 of 74 Old 07-22-2018, 10:10 AM
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I have my antenna mounted maybe 4 1/2-5 feet off the ground to get KEYC. When I moved into the rental house it was winter so I just haphazardly set it up and it worked (93-95 signal on the Tivo Series 3) right outside the back door. This spring I moved it (since it was partially blocking the back door) and it still works great. I did try and climb on the roof and try it but the trees hinder the signal (that and the landlord wont let me mount a tripod on the roof. I can mount a small antenna on the old electrical pipe but thats for a whole different story)
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post #34 of 74 Old 07-22-2018, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unclehonkey View Post
He will need VHF capabilities. K38MY hasnt been on air since end of last year. United Communications (KEYC's owner) couldnt reach an agreement with BENCO (owner of the co-op towers that the rest of the stations are on) so it was turned off Dec 21st
http://01900888.com/forum/45-lo...l#post55357146

They (KEYC) have a application to move K38MY to RF13 on the same tower as KEYC in Lewisville
http://enterpriseefiling.fcc.gov/da...25a16&goBack=N
You are correct; thank you.
http://www.rabbitears.info/market.p...callsign=K38MY

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post #35 of 74 Old 07-22-2018, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by unclehonkey View Post
I have my antenna mounted maybe 4 1/2-5 feet off the ground to get KEYC. When I moved into the rental house it was winter so I just haphazardly set it up and it worked (93-95 signal on the Tivo Series 3) right outside the back door. This spring I moved it (since it was partially blocking the back door) and it still works great. I did try and climb on the roof and try it but the trees hinder the signal (that and the landlord wont let me mount a tripod on the roof. I can mount a small antenna on the old electrical pipe but thats for a whole different story)
Good solution for your location and restrictions. That looks like the 30-2476.





BrushApe will need UHF and VHF capability. That would mean separate UHF and VHF antennas or a combo antenna like the Winegard HD7694P.
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post #36 of 74 Old 07-22-2018, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Good solution for your location and restrictions.
yeah my tvfool is not the best. Minneapolis is 60 miles ne and 2edge. The only stations I can get to show up are WCCO, KSTP and WUCW but it takes a fair amount of aiming and hoping it stays but the signal bounces around too much and pixelates. I'm in downtown Le Sueur which is by the river. Go 4 blocks up the hill and you probably geta little betetr signal. I see a fair amount of separate VHF & UHF antennas. Big 10-15 (or more) element VHF antennas and what would look like a XG91 UHF antenna. And I'm too far from the CTV towers (the co-op that BrushApe is trying to get). When I moved in I just put the antenna on the floor in the house and couldn't get KEYC. Moved it outside (again on the ground) and got a signal for KEYC.

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That looks like the 30-2476.
it is
I also have a old antennacraft y5-7-13 5 element VHF antenna in the shed too (among a plethora of other antennas I've acquired over the years including a HBU55 and a C490 in the box still...picked those up when Rat Shack went belly up )


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BrushApe will need UHF and VHF capability. That would mean separate UHF and VHF antennas or a combo antenna like the Winegard HD7694P.
oh I know. He is about 80 miles from me.

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post #37 of 74 Old 07-22-2018, 02:31 PM
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one other note is if he wants CBS he will have to use KEYC as CTV was forced to drop WCCO from K41IZ. They carry just Decades on 4-2. I noticed it when I went to Mankato and tuned in the CTV stations and was confirmed by a KEYC engineer. He mentions that WCCO cant figure out how to do blackouts/simsub on 4-1 yet KMSP (the FOX affiliate in Minneapolis) can implement it on their CTV carried stations
http://01900888.com/forum/45-lo...l#post56448884
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post #38 of 74 Old 07-22-2018, 08:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by unclehonkey View Post
one other note is if he wants CBS he will have to use KEYC as CTV was forced to drop WCCO from K41IZ. They carry just Decades on 4-2. I noticed it when I went to Mankato and tuned in the CTV stations and was confirmed by a KEYC engineer. He mentions that WCCO cant figure out how to do blackouts/simsub on 4-1 yet KMSP (the FOX affiliate in Minneapolis) can implement it on their CTV carried stations
http://01900888.com/forum/45-lo...l#post56448884
Thanks for all of the help. It has given me a lot to think about. After looking at it, anywhere I place the antenna on the house a tree will be in the way of 104 degrees or 114 degrees. I think I will have to look at ground level or other alternatives.

I do have dumb question. Why would Keyc go to the trouble of relocating their CH38 transmitter to the same tower as their 12 and instead of 38 moving to 13? It seems too similar to 12 to really gain a lot.
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post #39 of 74 Old 07-23-2018, 07:15 AM
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I do have dumb question. Why would Keyc go to the trouble of relocating their CH38 transmitter to the same tower as their 12 and instead of 38 moving to 13? It seems too similar to 12 to really gain a lot.
There are no dumb questions
The reason they are moving to RF13 is because of the FCC repack that is in place. All stations above 36 have to move to a station within the range of 2-36. The frequencies between 38-51 were sold to cell phone companies (37 is used for radio astronomy). VHF stations do travel further distances than UHF does. They are moving to RF13 with 3000 watts which should cover Mankato folks with an outdoor antenna. We don't know what programming they are going to put on it.
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post #40 of 74 Old 07-23-2018, 08:06 AM - Thread Starter
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There are no dumb questions
The reason they are moving to RF13 is because of the FCC repack that is in place. All stations above 36 have to move to a station within the range of 2-36. The frequencies between 38-51 were sold to cell phone companies (37 is used for radio astronomy). VHF stations do travel further distances than UHF does. They are moving to RF13 with 3000 watts which should cover Mankato folks with an outdoor antenna. We don't know what programming they are going to put on it.
I had worked for a two-way radio company and we had to relocate at lot of our channels because of Nextel now Sprint. I think at that time they called it rebanding. They did pay out a lot of money to have that done but I don't think it benefited anyone in the long term but Nextel/Sprint.
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post #41 of 74 Old 07-24-2018, 05:32 AM
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I had worked for a two-way radio company and we had to relocate at lot of our channels because of Nextel now Sprint. I think at that time they called it rebanding. They did pay out a lot of money to have that done but I don't think it benefited anyone in the long term but Nextel/Sprint.

It did benefit Sprint, but the issue was that the Nextel service channels were "interleaved" with the non-Nextel services, meaning that you might have (as an example) Nextel on 851.25, then someone else on 851.5, then Nextel on 851.75, someone else on 852.0, etc. It meant that any interference between Nextel and the other services was hard to mitigate. By consolidating Nextel (now Sprint) at the top of the band and the other users at the bottom, it made everything much neater. Plus, it meant that LTE (which requires contiguous spectrum) could be used in the consolidated spectrum, whether by Sprint or by the other users.


- Trip

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post #42 of 74 Old 07-24-2018, 06:11 PM - Thread Starter
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It did benefit Sprint, but the issue was that the Nextel service channels were "interleaved" with the non-Nextel services, meaning that you might have (as an example) Nextel on 851.25, then someone else on 851.5, then Nextel on 851.75, someone else on 852.0, etc. It meant that any interference between Nextel and the other services was hard to mitigate. By consolidating Nextel (now Sprint) at the top of the band and the other users at the bottom, it made everything much neater. Plus, it meant that LTE (which requires contiguous spectrum) could be used in the consolidated spectrum, whether by Sprint or by the other users.


- Trip
Now that you mention it the 800 trunking stuff I used to work with had some weird (we blamed Nextel) interference problems.
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post #43 of 74 Old 08-02-2018, 11:35 AM - Thread Starter
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This is the solution I came up with. It's a little redneck but it works the best. The tree canopy really hurts any roof mounted antenna. The street runs at 90 degrees and the towers I want are 103 and 115 degrees. The most open area is the street and I just hung a 4 bay antenna in a tree on my property near the street. Its homemade and if someones steals it I am really not out a lot.

After it passes the WAF I will get some direct burial RG6 and clean up the installation. I get most of the stations that are out of St James including NBC which is what I wanted.
Thanks for your help Tom
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post #44 of 74 Old 08-02-2018, 06:22 PM
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Thanks for the report and the photos, Tom. Looks like you have worked out a good solution for a difficult location.

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post #45 of 74 Old 08-06-2018, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by BrushApe View Post
This is the solution I came up with. It's a little redneck but it works the best. The tree canopy really hurts any roof mounted antenna. The street runs at 90 degrees and the towers I want are 103 and 115 degrees. The most open area is the street and I just hung a 4 bay antenna in a tree on my property near the street. Its homemade and if someones steals it I am really not out a lot.

After it passes the WAF I will get some direct burial RG6 and clean up the installation. I get most of the stations that are out of St James including NBC which is what I wanted.
Thanks for your help Tom
Very cool that it works for you Tom! I like the ingenuity
Can you list what stations you get?
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post #46 of 74 Old 08-07-2018, 05:49 AM - Thread Starter
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I now get:
2.1 2.4 2.5
4.2
5.1 5.7
5.2 5.3 5.4 5.6
9.2 9.3
9.4 9.5 9.9
11.4 11.5 11.6 11.7
12.1 12.2
20.1 20.2 20.3 20.4 20.5
20.6
23.5
24.1
31.1
35.1
40.1
Some of the weaker channels are "blocky" at certain times of the day or during storms. 23.5 24.1 31.1 I have a Sony TV as my second TV and it must have a better tuner than my Tivo Premiere as it gets more channels than what I have listed and the one that are blocky on the Tivo never are on the Sony.
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post #47 of 74 Old 08-07-2018, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by BrushApe View Post
I now get:
2.1 2.4 2.5
4.2
5.1 5.7
5.2 5.3 5.4 5.6
9.2 9.3
9.4 9.5 9.9
11.4 11.5 11.6 11.7
12.1 12.2
20.1 20.2 20.3 20.4 20.5
20.6
23.5
24.1
31.1
35.1
40.1
Some of the weaker channels are "blocky" at certain times of the day or during storms. 23.5 24.1 31.1 I have a Sony TV as my second TV and it must have a better tuner than my Tivo Premiere as it gets more channels than what I have listed and the one that are blocky on the Tivo never are on the Sony.
very cool!
Yes tuners can be more sensitive than others. But the Tivo has to split the signal internally for the 2 tuners so if the signal is "on the cliff" signal wise the Tivo may not keep it stable. One other note is the Premiere has been known to not have the best antenna tuner in it.

Did you hook an amplifier up to the antenna? That may help with the channels that are on the fringe reception wise
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post #48 of 74 Old 08-07-2018, 02:22 PM - Thread Starter
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The antenna has an RCA pre-amp hooked up to it. It was one I bought at Menards and don't remember the model. It worked a lot better with it than without it.
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post #49 of 74 Old 11-02-2018, 09:43 AM - Thread Starter
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A question for you guys. This week real channels 14 and 21 went from about 50 to zero on my Tivo signal meter. Real channel 30 comes in at about 50 and I am pretty sure it's broadcast from the same tower if not the same feedline. My question is how likely is it that it's my problem? I'm thinking since the leaves are mostly down I get some marginal channels that I couldn't get this summer which makes me think it's not on my end.
Thanks
Tom

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post #50 of 74 Old 11-02-2018, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrushApe View Post
A question for you guys. This week real channels 14 and 21 went from about 50 to zero on my Tivo signal meter. Real channel 30 comes in at about 50 and I am pretty sure it's broadcast from the same tower if not the same feedline. My question is how likely is it that it's my problem. Since the leaves are mostly down I get some marginal channels that I couldn't get this summer.
Thanks
Tom
I can't say for sure but it looks like they're sharing the same antenna. If you've never had a problem before there's probably a failure at their end. These lower power translator stations are not as reliable as the full power stations are.

Try calling them:

http://www.manta.com/c/mhhxdm1/coop...hern-minnesota
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post #51 of 74 Old 11-02-2018, 02:22 PM - Thread Starter
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I can't say for sure but it looks like they're sharing the same antenna. If you've never had a problem before there's probably a failure at their end. These lower power translator stations are not as reliable as the full power stations are.

Try calling them:

http://www.manta.com/c/mhhxdm1/coop...hern-minnesota
I will give that a try. Thank you. I emailed KARE the NBC affiliate but they probably aren't directly responsible.

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post #52 of 74 Old 11-02-2018, 05:26 PM - Thread Starter
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I called CTV - the coop consortium that maintains the tower and or transmitter. The person I talked to told me to do a channel scan as some of the frequencies/channel assignments have changed and they were doing some work on the tower. I tried that and it made no difference. I suspect "do a channel scan" is as much as I would get for assistance from the person. I will pursue it more next week.
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post #53 of 74 Old 11-03-2018, 08:21 AM
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I will give that a try. Thank you. I emailed KARE the NBC affiliate but they probably aren't directly responsible.
since the translators are owned by CTV and not the networks, you have to work with CTV and NOT the networks. They have no clue what is going on.
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post #54 of 74 Old 11-03-2018, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrushApe View Post
A question for you guys. This week real channels 14 and 21 went from about 50 to zero on my Tivo signal meter. Real channel 30 comes in at about 50 and I am pretty sure it's broadcast from the same tower if not the same feedline. My question is how likely is it that it's my problem? I'm thinking since the leaves are mostly down I get some marginal channels that I couldn't get this summer which makes me think it's not on my end.
Thanks
Tom
Tom
Besides CTV having to move some stations to different channel numbers some stations have to lower power. Looking at the info from rabbitears.info (which has the info from the FCC)
Real channel 14 (which is KMSP, Buzzr and Light) has no changes. Can you get RF34 which has FOX 9 and FOX 9+ (formerly My 29)?
Real Channel 21 (NBC) has to drop power down to 350 watts (from 2000) and is moving to a lower tower (975 to 596 feet). They have to because KDLT (also on 21) is increasing their power and moving to a higher tower so there would be too much interference from CTV 21
current coverage for the CTV coop RF21
http://www.rabbitears.info/contour....a&site=1&map=Y
new coverage
http://www.rabbitears.info/contour....9&site=1&map=Y

RF30 (KSTP) has to also drop power...from 12,000 watts to 2,000 watts (probably due to KSTC 45 in the cities moving to RF30 per the repack)

looking at the info these stations have to make changes besides the ones listed above
26 (KTCA 2)...slight drop form 2kw to 1.7kw
41 (StartTV sub..they cant carry WCCO anymore)..drop from 2kw 975 ft to 400 watts 596 feet
44 (KSTC 45)..same info as 41 except 500 watts
49 (KPXM Ion 41)...moving to 28
45 (TBN mux) moving to 22

So you may need a more powerful antenna to keep the stations you have (or had). The St James tower doesnt need many changes in stations moving RF numbers. The Frost and Jackson towers do have a few RF number changes (moving to lower channel numbers.)

Tony
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post #55 of 74 Old 11-03-2018, 08:51 AM
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Dang just looking at the info and I see with these changes Mankato proper may be outside of the area unless you have a huge setup (and I may be moving to Mankato)
I see 45 (RF44 moving to 19) and 11 (RF21) doesnt reach Mankato with their new parameters according to maps

It is possible that CTV may move programming around on stations to **hopefully** put the networks on the "best" signals (most power highest tower). Reason I say that is 1600 watts at 596 feet (like RF35 which has just Laff on it) would be better than 500 watts at 596 feet
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post #56 of 74 Old 11-03-2018, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by BrushApe View Post
A question for you guys. This week real channels 14 and 21 went from about 50 to zero on my Tivo signal meter. Real channel 30 comes in at about 50 and I am pretty sure it's broadcast from the same tower if not the same feedline. My question is how likely is it that it's my problem? I'm thinking since the leaves are mostly down I get some marginal channels that I couldn't get this summer which makes me think it's not on my end.
Thanks
Tom
I have a problem with my TiVo Roamio where if a channel drops out for any reason sometimes it can no longer tune to that sub channel. For example, if channel 10 drops out and I'm tuned to 10.1 and then 10 comes back, the TiVo will say there's a problem with the channel. Retuning to 10.1 will not fix it. But if I tune to 10.2, the station is normal. Then I retune to 10.1, the station is back. I've missed scheduled recordings when this happens. I've never seen this when using the tuner in my TV.
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post #57 of 74 Old 11-03-2018, 10:58 AM - Thread Starter
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I think I see my problem looking at unclehonkeys coverage maps. I was within the red and blue circles before. Now I am well outside the blue circle. I think NBC may be lost to me now. I was really looking forward to the Packer / Patriot game. I also liked Quest and Justice network.
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post #58 of 74 Old 11-03-2018, 12:13 PM - Thread Starter
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I can get real channel 34 but I lost real 14 Fox9 which did work on Mon. I looks like Tues must have been the big day for changes as things stopped working that day.
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post #59 of 74 Old 11-03-2018, 01:58 PM
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I can get real channel 34 but I lost real 14 Fox9 which did work on Mon. I looks like Tues must have been the big day for changes as things stopped working that day.
Tom
Can you get 16.1 (RF16?). It's CTV "announcement" page and may have some info. Per their (Federated Co-op) newsletter they mention that

CTV viewers will see some channel
disruptions in early October. CTV will
try to keep these to a minimum, but the
Federal Communications Commission
(FCC) is requiring CTV to move off
some of the channels to new channels.
CTV will install new equipment to
accommodate the needed changes.
Please continue to rescan your TV
during this time period. Viewers will
experience short periods of time that
the rebroadcasting of channels will be
off, but hopefully not for long. This is
a big change for CTV. We appreciate
your patience during this process
and continued support of CTV. Watch
channel 16.1 for updates
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post #60 of 74 Old 11-03-2018, 07:09 PM - Thread Starter
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16.x must be one of their weaker channels. I only pick it up once in a blue moon....
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