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post #1 of 40 Old 01-10-2019, 12:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Grants Pass, OR: Antenna help

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...90384bd6db66d9

I used antennaweb which recommends a variety of antennas, was curious if any of the pros could point me in the right direction. It will be externally mounted at about 10'.

I used one of these in the past but that was in CA,
http://smile.amazon.com/RCA-Compact...ified+60+miles

I plan to hook it up to a Silicon Dust tuner.
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post #2 of 40 Old 01-10-2019, 12:39 PM
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Get YouTube TV. Awesome for only $35 a month.

LG OLED55C6P
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2 - Polk TSi300, 1 - Polk CS10, 4 - Polk T15, 1 - Polk PSW125
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post #3 of 40 Old 01-10-2019, 01:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Seilerbird View Post
Get YouTube TV. Awesome for only $35 a month.
Thanks?

I am looking for an antenna for OTA.

1. Don't want another sub.
2. Youtube TV is not available where I live.
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post #4 of 40 Old 01-10-2019, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteboy714 View Post
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...90384bd6db66d9

I used antennaweb which recommends a variety of antennas, was curious if any of the pros could point me in the right direction. It will be externally mounted at about 10'.

I used one of these in the past but that was in CA,
http://smile.amazon.com/RCA-Compact...ified+60+miles

I plan to hook it up to a Silicon Dust tuner.
OTA antenna tv is a GREAT way to go if your location allows it, so ignore the shills that right away push streaming.

The FIRST thing you needed to do, is the TVFool report, thanks. Now, the SECOND thing you need to do, is figure out your expectations. For instance: what locals stations/channels are MUST HAVE to you? Give us the exact call letters from the report.

Next: Is there a spot outside your house that you can easily mount an antenna at 10feet, and it be out in the open enough to not get interference from close trees, buildings, metal roof, and the like? Chainlink fence TOP RAIL pipe is 10' long, cheap, and is swaged at one end to fit into another one for extension. So, you can actually get higher very easily by 10' increments. That, and a clamp at one of your eve's might be a way to go. That way there's no holes for lag screws into your roof. That also probably requires a minimum of 20' in height.

The LOS (line of sight) stations on your report should be easy to get. The 1edge and 2edge stuff is going to be harder, maybe impossible to be 100% solid. The depends on what the "edge" is that it's bouncing off of. Depending on what specific stations are your MUST have's, it appears to me that you are going to have to either have several antennas, or one multi-band antenna that has a very wide angle of reception. You NEED a LOW vhf, HIGH vhf and uhf antenna, as your stations are all over the place frequency-wise.

So, can you answer those questions? Rabbit73 will be around soon after those answers, and he's a guy you should especially listen to very carefully for all that's going to be needed. It might be any number of things, and you are going to have to keep an open mind, and do some experimenting, that may cost a little more money up front than you'd like, BUT, it pays off because you no longer need to be paying the robber barons every month for a tv sub.

Welcome to the (sometimes) black magic that is trying to get solid reception of digital tv, lol!

P.s. Also try re-running your TvFool report at 20ft and 30ft, and post both of those. Just to see if anything changes towards your "1Edge, & 2Edge" stations. Please also run an Fmfool report and post it, so we can see if you'll be fighting local radio stations. http://www.fmfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29

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post #5 of 40 Old 01-10-2019, 02:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Primestar31 View Post
OTA antenna tv is a GREAT way to go if your location allows it, so ignore the shills that right away push streaming.

The FIRST thing you needed to do, is the TVFool report, thanks. Now, the SECOND thing you need to do, is figure out your expectations. For instance: what locals stations/channels are MUST HAVE to you? Give us the exact call letters from the report.

Next: Is there a spot outside your house that you can easily mount an antenna at 10feet, and it be out in the open enough to not get interference from close trees, buildings, metal roof, and the like? Chainlink fence TOP RAIL pipe is 10' long, cheap, and is swaged at one end to fit into another one for extension. So, you can actually get higher very easily by 10' increments. That, and a clamp at one of your eve's might be a way to go. That way there's no holes for lag screws into your roof. That also probably requires a minimum of 20' in height.

The LOS (line of sight) stations on your report should be easy to get. The 1edge and 2edge stuff is going to be harder, maybe impossible to be 100% solid. The depends on what the "edge" is that it's bouncing off of. Depending on what specific stations are your MUST have's, it appears to me that you are going to have to either have several antennas, or one multi-band antenna that has a very wide angle of reception. You NEED a LOW vhf, HIGH vhf and uhf antenna, as your stations are all over the place frequency-wise.

So, can you answer those questions? Rabbit73 will be around soon after those answers, and he's a guy you should especially listen to very carefully for all that's going to be needed. It might be any number of things, and you are going to have to keep an open mind, and do some experimenting, that may cost a little more money up front than you'd like, BUT, it pays off because you no longer need to be paying the robber barons every month for a tv sub.

Welcome to the (sometimes) black magic that is trying to get solid reception of digital tv, lol!

P.s. Also try re-running your TvFool report at 20ft and 30ft, and post both of those. Just to see if anything changes towards your "1Edge, & 2Edge" stations. Please also run an Fmfool report and post it, so we can see if you'll be fighting local radio stations. http://www.fmfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29
Thanks for the great response, I will do as you aksed when I get a chance.

10' is my limit, brand new home and the WAF with the antenna is already a hurdle.

I basically just want the 4 major networks, but man sounds like it may not be worth it, multiple antennas is definitely a no go.
Channels:
KOBI
KDRV-DT
KTVL
KMVU
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post #6 of 40 Old 01-10-2019, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteboy714 View Post
Thanks for the great response, I will do as you aksed when I get a chance.

10' is my limit, brand new home and the WAF with the antenna is already a hurdle.

I basically just want the 4 major networks, but man sounds like it may not be worth it, multiple antennas is definitely a no go.
Channels:
KOBI
KDRV-DT
KTVL
KMVU
I forgot one more thing: What's your expected budget for this? Here's what I initially see, which means an all-band antenna at a minimum. The BEST thing you have going at least, is that your stations are fairly close. Though that may not be good enough, being as they are all 1 or 2 edge:

KOBI -------- 5 (low vhf)-- NBC- 1edge- 20.0 miles 15degree TRUE
KDRV-DT - 12 (high vhf)-- ABC- 1edge- 19.6 miles 15degree TRUE
KTVL ------10 (high vhf) --CBS- 2edge- 39.1 miles 126degree TRUE
KMVU ---- 26 (uhf) ------- FOX- 2edge- 31.0 miles 105degree TRUE

P.S. What about this: KSYS-DT --8 -(high vhf)-PBS 1edge 19.6 miles 15degree TRUE

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post #7 of 40 Old 01-10-2019, 03:27 PM
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Although TVFool provides the most ACCURATE Signal Strength Predictions, the owner hasn't been keeping up with the latest changes....and is very spotty wrt Network Affiliations. So the FIRST thing I had to do was to bounce TVFool Results against RabbitEars.info "TV STUDY" Results for your ZIPCODE location [you should redo a "SEARCH" using your accurate location]....which unfortunately does NOT show Network Affiliations. And then backfill the Network Affiliations found by clicking on each Station's Callsign in the Station list for Grants Pass [actually searched for strongest station callsign]:
http://www.rabbitears.info/search.p...pe=dBm&height=
and
http://www.rabbitears.info/market.p...=71075#station

Note that there are several changes to REAL Channel Assignments, and you only "need" to receive the SEVEN Strongest Stations, ALL being in UHF Band, so Hi-VHF and/or Lo-VHF Antenna is NOT needed. Weakest is Ch19 [NM=43.1 dB], which is also where most UHF Band Antennas have LEAST Gain.

So I would recommend any of the 2-Bay or 4-Bay UHF Only Outdoor Antennas, although typical "Flat-Type" [or other UHF] Indoor Antenna MAY also be adequate....you would have to TRY it to make sure.

Here is the Corrected TVFool Report:

GREEN ZONE:
K38LJ, Ch14 (NOT 38), Virtual 20.1, WATCH-TV (whatever that is.....)
K49JE, Ch31 (NOT 49), Virtual 5.1, NBC/THIS-TV
KBLN, Ch30, Virtual 30.1, 3ANGELS (Religious)
K15BP, Ch15, Virtual 12.1, ABC/Antenna-TV
K44JB, Ch44, Virtual 26.1, FOX/MeTV/ION
K25JW, Ch25, Virtual 10.1, CBS/CW+/Comet/TBD.COM
K19HS, Ch19, Virtual 8.1, PBS/World/Encore/Create

K47GI, Ch36 (NOT 47), (30.1), 3ANGELS (Religious) [DUPLICATE]
KOBI, Ch5, (5.1), NBC/ThisTV [DUPLICATE]

YELLOW ZONE: [ALL DUPLICATES]
KSYS, Ch8, (8.1), PBS/World/Encore/Create
KDRV, Ch12, (12.1), ABC/AntennaTV
K02JJ, Ch2, (8.1), PBS/World/Encore/Create

RED ZONE: [ALL DUPLICATES]
K22FC, Ch22, (30.1), 3ANGELS (Religious)
K04JZ, Ch4, (10.1), CBS/CW+/Comet/TBD.COM
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post #8 of 40 Old 01-10-2019, 03:34 PM
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Doesn't the present TvFool report have the NEW/future station assignments? Good point though in that everything is changing due to the latest spectrum sale.

If there's that much difference because of frequency moves, depending on when his stations switch over, (or have they already?) any antenna he buys right now might have to be changed later.

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post #9 of 40 Old 01-10-2019, 03:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Primestar31 View Post
Doesn't the present TvFool report have the NEW/future station assignments? Good point though in that everything is changing due to the latest spectrum sale.

If there's that much difference because of frequency moves, depending on when his stations switch over, (or have they already?) any antenna he buys right now might have to be changed later.
Lol that would suck ,great info thanks guys, above was mentioned a 4 bay antenna, I googled it, does this count?
http://www.channelmaster.com/Digita.../cm-4221hd.htm
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post #10 of 40 Old 01-10-2019, 03:44 PM
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Channel Master CM-4221HD, more expensive Antennas Direct DB-4e and less expensive Solid Signal HDB-4X are all good 4-Bay Antennas with roughly the SAME performance:
http://photos.imageevent.com/holl_an...4%20-%20RG.jpg

As I mentioned above, we KNOW that TVFool is NOT keeping up with all of the Channel Changes, but many of us still prefer it for calculating Signal Strengths and Net Margins. Per fol. RabbitEars Report, NONE of the stations I listed above are moving from their CURRENT Assignments in the upcoming Shuffle to clear out Ch48 and above. Fol. shows upcoming Channel Changes for the much larger MEDFORD DMA:
http://www.rabbitears.info/market.p...n=KBLN#station


BTW: When it's obvious what we're talking about, there is no need to QUOTE a preceding lengthy post....it just wastes HDD capacity on the Forum's Server....
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post #11 of 40 Old 01-10-2019, 04:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post


BTW: When it's obvious what we're talking about, there is no need to QUOTE a preceding lengthy post....it just wastes HDD capacity on the Forum's Server....
I usually quote someone so they can get notified or notice it easier, those are all pretty cheap options, just big and ugly for the spot I have in mind. Thanks for the help. Is there usually more things need to by as far as fittings and what not besides the antenna?

I think if I could just stick one of these in my attic I would be golden, maybe I should look into it, or will that kill the signal too much?
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post #12 of 40 Old 01-11-2019, 07:04 AM
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Link to the OPs previous thread.

Title edited. See the stickies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteboy714 View Post
I usually quote someone so they can get notified or notice it easier.
You can edit quotes down to just the parts you're responding to. You can also just put an @ in front of the username in your post which will also alert the user if the user has alerts enabled. There is really no need to run a full quote of a long post if it's within a few posts of your own.

Mobile users will thank you.
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post #13 of 40 Old 01-11-2019, 08:41 AM
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So with holl_ands having already done exactly what I would have done in terms of checking the translators against RabbitEars and determining that you don't actually need to chase the main transmitters, I did have one additional comment. The HDHomeRun is a great tuner for this sort of thing. Its signal meter is very helpful in determining whether your problem is too little signal or too much multipath or other interference. If you have questions, feel free to ask.


- Trip

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Comments are my own and not that of the FCC (my employer) or anyone else.

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post #14 of 40 Old 01-11-2019, 09:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
If you have questions, feel free to ask.
- Trip
Thank you, how about antennas? You agree with what's above. I am thinking now putting it in the attic. Was trying to find something on amazon for an easy return if things don't work as I had hoped.
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post #15 of 40 Old 01-11-2019, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
It looks like he moved since then.
Link to his previous report, no longer on the TVFool server:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...e2cba14fb5dc4d

but I saved an image:





Quote:
You can edit quotes down to just the parts you're responding to.
That's what I do.
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If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
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post #16 of 40 Old 01-11-2019, 09:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes I moved.
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post #17 of 40 Old 01-11-2019, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by whiteboy714 View Post
Thank you, how about antennas? You agree with what's above. I am thinking now putting it in the attic. Was trying to find something on amazon for an easy return if things don't work as I had hoped.
Putting it in the attic changes the game because the signal strength in the attic is unknown. Also, your desired networks are not all in the same direction.

K49JE, Ch31 (NOT 49), Virtual 5.1, NBC, 100 deg
K15BP, Ch15, Virtual 12.1, ABC, 38 deg
K44JB, Ch34 (NOT 44), Virtual 26.1, FOX, 38 deg
K25JW, Ch25, Virtual 10.1, CBS, 16 deg

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Last edited by rabbit73; 01-11-2019 at 11:35 AM.
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post #18 of 40 Old 01-11-2019, 10:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Putting it in the attic changes the game because the signal strength in the attic is unknown. Also, your desired networks are not all in the same direction.


K49JE, Ch31 (NOT 49), Virtual 5.1, NBC, 100 deg
K15BP, Ch15, Virtual 12.1, ABC, 38 deg
K44JB, Ch34 (NOT 44), Virtual 26.1, FOX, 38 deg
K25JW, Ch25, Virtual 10.1, CBS, 16 deg
So no attic and omni directional?
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post #19 of 40 Old 01-11-2019, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteboy714 View Post
So no attic and omni directional?
Not so fast, I didn't say that. I think you should give the attic a chance before going outside because of the WAF (Wife Acceptance/Approval Factor).

The attic signals will be weaker because of the building attenuation, but your signals outdoors are quite strong. Since your antenna will not be very high, the signals might have to travel through your neighbor's house. I don't know your exact location, so I would need your exact coordinates by PM for privacy to see the green signal lines.There will be multipath reflections in the attic, so you might have to try different locations in the attic for the antenna to find a hot spot.

Omni antennas receive poorly in all directions. I consider them a last resort, but you are welcome to try one.

IOW, you must be prepared to experiment.

The spread of your signals is about 84 degrees. The Antennas Direct C2V has a beamwidth that is almost wide enough. The AD C2MAX is replacing it, but its rated beamwidth isn't quite as much. If you are forced to get the C2MAX, add the accessory reflector to increase gain and reduce the reflections from the rear.

If that doesn't work, you will need two DB4e antennas which are not easily combined.

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
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post #20 of 40 Old 01-11-2019, 12:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post

The spread of your signals is about 84 degrees. The Antennas Direct C2V has a beamwidth that is almost wide enough. The AD C2MAX is replacing it, but its rated beamwidth isn't quite as much. If you are forced to get the C2MAX, add the accessory reflector to increase gain and reduce the reflections from the rear.

If that doesn't work, you will need two DB4e antennas which are not easily combined.
Ok I see. thanks so much I sent you a PM.

I like the attic idea, and the first antenna you mentioned is on amazon for an easy return. Do I need to buy anything else (besides cables) like amps or splitters? I plan to go straight into a HDhomerun.
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Thank you for the PM. It looks like your signals will have a clear shot for now.

Try it without a preamp for now.

If you are going directly in to an HDHR, you shouldn't need a splitter, unless you want to compare what the TV tuner says vs what the HDHR diagnostics says. Which HDHR did you get?

The HDHR used to have a sig monitor for signal strength, signal quality, and symbol quality (the inverse of uncorrected errors), but it has been discontinued.



You can get an app for Android



The iOS app doesn't show symbol quality. You can have good reception with signal strength and signal quality less than 100, but symbol quality must be 100 for good reception.

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
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post #22 of 40 Old 01-11-2019, 02:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Thank you for the PM. It looks like your signals will have a clear shot for now.

Try it without a preamp for now.




The iOS app doesn't show symbol quality. You can have good reception with signal strength and signal quality less than 100, but symbol quality must be 100 for good reception.
Ok thanks, I have an android device lying around I could test with, most of our phones are apple now.

I have not bought anything yet I am looking at the Quatro. I need it to be networked. Here is what is in my cart.
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post #23 of 40 Old 01-11-2019, 02:24 PM
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Ok thanks, I have an android device lying around I could test with, most of our phones are apple now.
Good

Quote:
I have not bought anything yet I am looking at the Quatro. I need it to be networked. Here is what is in my cart.
There are problems with the Quatro; read case history here:
http://www.highdefforum.com/local-h...-23-tulsa.html

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post #24 of 40 Old 01-11-2019, 03:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Good

There are problems with the Quatro; read case history here:
http://www.highdefforum.com/local-h...-23-tulsa.html
Uh-oh, looks like the one guy solved it with a duo. Maybe I should just get an older 2 tuner connect. I am pretty set on HDHR, they have been good to me in the past and the network side allows them to be viewed in my entire home.
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post #25 of 40 Old 01-11-2019, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by whiteboy714 View Post
Uh-oh, looks like the one guy solved it with a duo. Maybe I should just get an older 2 tuner connect. I am pretty set on HDHR, they have been good to me in the past and the network side allows them to be viewed in my entire home.
There's this coming very soon: http://www.tablotv.com/products/tablo-quad-ota-dvr/
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post #26 of 40 Old 01-11-2019, 03:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, I just grabbed an older model connect 2 tuner. 2 tuners is probably fine right now anyways.
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post #27 of 40 Old 01-11-2019, 04:07 PM
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Although only a few short miles away, you have stations coming from two general directions: 15-38 deg (re True North) and 100-131 deg....separated by a MAX difference of 116-deg....which is a LOT wider that the Beamwidth provided by most UHF Antennas.

When you are Outdoors, there is LOTS of excess signal strength which helps to receive from ALL directions....AND being only a few miles away from Towers in both directions, there will be LOTS of Reflections coming into the Antenna from different directions. [YES, it is Multipath....but modern 8VSB chips LOVE Multipath....up to a point.] So I would expect a Single 2-Bay or 4-Bay Outdoor Antenna would probably work just fine....and if you have problems then first thing to try is to remove the Reflector and orient the Bi-Directional NULL half-way between 27-deg and 115-deg. [And Indoors with a Bi-Directional Antenna, there will similarly be LOTS of Reflections coming into the Antenna from different directions.]

OTOH, in an Attic you lose [on the average] about 13 dB +/- 7 dB of signal strength, depending on construction type (metal roof is worst), "leakage" via windows or ends of Attic and Location, Location, Location. So it's a crap shoot, made more difficult TRYING to find a "good" Location for a single Antenna with signals coming from two different directions.....but certainly worth a try.

Worst case in the Attic, you MIGHT end up needing a TWO Antenna Solution using a standard 2-Way Combiner/Splitter [or direct to each of two Tuners], with one pointed towards about 27-deg and the other towards about 115-deg....and probably in different "good" Locations. [Coax Lengths do NOT need to be the same.] I would also recommend a pair of 4-Bay Antennas [e.g. less expensive HDB-4X] due to the higher Gain, Narrower Forward Beamwidth and higher suppression of signals from the Opposite Direction than say a 2-Bay or A-D C2 type Antenna. [The more expensive A-D DB-8e also provides this capability but is physically CONSTRAINED into a likely awkward side-by-side configuration, rather than two 4-Bay Antennas that can be arbitrarily located wherever EACH works best in the Attic.]


BTW: If I had a Dual-Tuner DVR, I would prefer that BOTH Antennas feed BOTH Tuners....rather than be Constrained so that I could NOT assign Both Tuners to receive programs coming via the SAME Antenna.

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post #28 of 40 Old 01-11-2019, 04:49 PM
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If you need two UHF antennas, one for each direction, I suggest two DB4es and two CONNECT Duos. IIRC, you can now edit the channels for each Duo. The price for the DB4e has been reduced and it is less hostile to use in close quarters. I have scratched myself many times on CM4221 antennas.

131 degrees is not needed for your 4 required networks. KBLN is 3ABN, and K47GI is a translator for KBLN.

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post #29 of 40 Old 01-11-2019, 05:05 PM - Thread Starter
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If you need two UHF antennas, one for each direction, I suggest two DB4es and two CONNECT Duos. IIRC, you can now edit the channels for each Duo. The price for the DB4e has been reduced and it is less holtile to use in close quaeters. I have scratched myself many times on CM4221 antennas.


131 degrees is not needed for your 4 required networks.
Clearstream 2V vs DB4e?
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post #30 of 40 Old 01-11-2019, 05:10 PM
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First try CS2V; it might cover 16 to 100 degrees true. Try the simple way first. If not, then two DB4es. My crystal ball doesn't give a guarantee.
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