Forum Jump: 
 326Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 430 Old 01-03-2019, 04:58 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Soulnight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Germany
Posts: 986
Mentioned: 116 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 725 Post(s)
Liked: 822
Lightbulb madVR Tool: MadmeasureHDR Optimizer (Measurements, Dynamic Clipping & Target Nits)

This Thread will be dedicated to our tool "MadmeasureHDR Optimizer" to help optimize measurements files generated by the process "MadmeasureHDR" from beta 38 onwards.


It was previously called madmeasure dynamic clipping tool since it all started with dynamic clipping.

Now the tool can also automatically choose a Target Nits in the measurement file for a movie.

More importantly, it can adjust dynamically the target nits DURING the movie in order to optimize the brightness and picture contrast at all time.


ps: goal is to offset the discussions about the tool here instead of the original madvr HDR Tone mapping developpement thread:
http://01900888.com/forum/24-di...projector.html

UPDATE: 2019-01-19
V3.3.3
http://01900888.com/forum/26-ho...l#post57463528

UPDATE: 2019-01-16
V3.3.2
http://01900888.com/forum/26-ho...l#post57448962


UPDATE: 2019-01-14
V3.3.1
http://01900888.com/forum/26-ho...l#post57437966

UPDATE: 2019-01-13
V3.3.0
http://01900888.com/forum/26-ho...l#post57431312

UPDATE: 2019-01-13
V3.2.0
http://01900888.com/forum/26-ho...l#post57428292



UPDATE: 2019-01-09
V3.1.0
http://01900888.com/forum/26-ho...l#post57408890


UPDATE: 2019-01-08:
V3.0.0
http://01900888.com/forum/26-ho...l#post57401504


UPDATE: 2019-01-06
V2.9.9
http://projectiondream.com/wp-conten...ing-V2.9.9.zip

UPDATE: 2019-01-04
V2.9.8
http://projectiondream.com/wp-conten...8-Download.zip
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	THE MEG GUI.PNG
Views:	58
Size:	250.5 KB
ID:	2507818   Click image for larger version

Name:	Passengers GUI.PNG
Views:	84
Size:	248.9 KB
ID:	2508412  

Last edited by Soulnight; Today at 03:44 AM.
Soulnight is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 430 Old 01-03-2019, 04:59 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Soulnight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Germany
Posts: 986
Mentioned: 116 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 725 Post(s)
Liked: 822
Soulnight is online now  
post #3 of 430 Old 01-03-2019, 05:00 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Soulnight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Germany
Posts: 986
Mentioned: 116 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 725 Post(s)
Liked: 822
Soulnight is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 430 Old 01-03-2019, 05:01 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Soulnight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Germany
Posts: 986
Mentioned: 116 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 725 Post(s)
Liked: 822
Soulnight is online now  
post #5 of 430 Old 01-03-2019, 05:19 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Manni01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,419
Mentioned: 245 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4930 Post(s)
Liked: 4801
Good idea to create a new thread

Re the dynamic target nits (which sounds exciting!), will we be able to set a minimum target (or have a "keep content below diffuse white untouched" option), to make sure that 0-100nits in the content isn't fluctuating? For example, in my case, I'd specify 200nits as a minimal target.

Looking forward to testing this!
Manni01 is online now  
post #6 of 430 Old 01-03-2019, 06:48 AM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
Ian_Currie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Holliston, MA
Posts: 1,640
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 247 Post(s)
Liked: 68
Hi Soulnight,

Thanks for starting this thread.

I've been attempting to use this tool, but could use a little info about how to use it properly. For example:

- at first glance it looks like you can either measure just one file or an entire folder but when you choose the 'Choose File' button it seems to be looking for a measurement file and not a .MKV file. Is the purpose of the CHOOSE FILE button to load a measurement file and modify it?

- When I used the CHOOSE PATH route it started measuring my MKV files. I noticed two things:
1) it reports that it might take up to 20 minutes when in fact it seems to be an hour plus for my files (using a 1080ti with files on a separate NAS). Looking at task manager performance I see the GPU is at 100% so I don't think it's network related?
EDIT: I missed this crucial tip: If you change LAV video filter to D3D11 (native) it works much faster.

2) The app seems to go into 'non-responding' mode (cursor is just a rotating circle instead of arrow) and I can't seem to click the STOP button.
EDIT: Tried this a second time and while the app still went white and seemed to not respond, it DID stop after the current movie and displayed a log file.


- I see that it creates 3 files: one in an ORIGINAL folder and then a measurement file + a 'details.txt' file. Having read various posts about whether to store the measurement files in the same folder or in a dedicated one, it seems that at this point it is safer to keep them all together? I ask because I'd prefer them to be separate but don't want to make your app unhappy.


- Once measurement files exist, in what way should we be modifying them to match the peak nits of our display?
EDIT: I now see we can click on either the Manni or Neo-XP button as an 'adjustment' and then when re-processing the folder it will revise the measurement files to have the corresponding target nits. Still whether manual means 'use profile' or one's own desired value...?

Thanks so much for all your (and Anna's) work on this!

JVC-RS4500 4k projector, Lumagen Pro, 138" 2.35:1 ST130
Panasonic DMP-UB820 & Kodi/madVR
Classe SSP-800, Bryston amplification, Wilson Audio speakers (7.2) + Buttkickers.

Last edited by Ian_Currie; 01-03-2019 at 11:40 AM.
Ian_Currie is offline  
post #7 of 430 Old 01-03-2019, 07:41 AM
Advanced Member
 
clark17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Ottawa - Ontario
Posts: 700
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 157 Post(s)
Liked: 74
thanks for all your hard work and HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!



Great idea to open your own thread :-)
Soulnight likes this.
clark17 is offline  
post #8 of 430 Old 01-03-2019, 10:47 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SamuriHL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,852
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked: 61
Should there not be a link to the latest build somewhere in this thread? :P Thanks for your hard work!!
NoTechi likes this.
SamuriHL is online now  
post #9 of 430 Old 01-03-2019, 11:15 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 19
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian_Currie View Post
2) The app seems to go into 'non-responding' mode (cursor is just a rotating circle instead of arrow) and I can't seem to click the STOP button.

Same thing in my environment , GPU nVidia 1080Ti OC , CPU Intel I7 6700K and LAV video filter to D3D11 (native)
Lost_62 is offline  
post #10 of 430 Old 01-03-2019, 11:33 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 19
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 0
What it consists of deselect the setting (Apply dynamic Clipping) keeping only enabled (Apply target nits selection) that what changes for the purposes of measurement final?

Last edited by Lost_62; 01-03-2019 at 12:01 PM.
Lost_62 is offline  
post #11 of 430 Old 01-03-2019, 04:08 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 105
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked: 43
Great to have this seperate thread for your optimizer

I was also thinking about the other tools which are being worked on like Bernds tool which is like a swiss knife with different functions like automatic JVC setting switching, Pandm1967 which has a great visualization of measurements to analyze the measurement files and even Manni still using a batch file to measure. To not confuse standard users it would be best to just have one tool. Or clearly devide the tasks between the tools.

A standard user use case would be to be able to start/stop measuing and optimizing new movies in specified paths to their pre-configured settings by pressing a button/starting a batch file and don't have to worry about anything else. I think this is also Mannies intention still using his batch file.

As of today I would run Bernds tool to measure since it is more reliable/responsive for me while measuring. Run MadmeasureHDR Optimizer to optimize. And on my todo list is to figure out how to get measurements working on a bdmv folder structure with Pandm1967 tool and the HardLink trick. Before doing all of this I have to check if there are updates to those tools and install them if required. Thats a bit cluttered workflow. Would be great if you tool developers would get together and combine the strength of all tools in one to come to the one click solution

Beside that really looking forward to the target nits adjustments during the movie!!

NoTechi
Manni01 likes this.
NoTechi is online now  
post #12 of 430 Old 01-03-2019, 04:32 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Manni01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,419
Mentioned: 245 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4930 Post(s)
Liked: 4801
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoTechi View Post
Great to have this seperate thread for your optimizer

I was also thinking about the other tools which are being worked on like Bernds tool which is like a swiss knife with different functions like automatic JVC setting switching, Pandm1967 which has a great visualization of measurements to analyze the measurement files and even Manni still using a batch file to measure. To not confuse standard users it would be best to just have one tool. Or clearly devide the tasks between the tools.

A standard user use case would be to be able to start/stop measuing and optimizing new movies in specified paths to their pre-configured settings by pressing a button/starting a batch file and don't have to worry about anything else. I think this is also Mannies intention still using his batch file.

As of today I would run Bernds tool to measure since it is more reliable/responsive for me while measuring. Run MadmeasureHDR Optimizer to optimize. And on my todo list is to figure out how to get measurements working on a bdmv folder structure with Pandm1967 tool and the HardLink trick. Before doing all of this I have to check if there are updates to those tools and install them if required. Thats a bit cluttered workflow. Would be great if you tool developers would get together and combine the strength of all tools in one to come to the one click solution

Beside that really looking forward to the target nits adjustments during the movie!!

NoTechi
Of course it'[s for Anna/Flo to decide, but if they provide a way to call the utility, both BerndFfm and myself will be able to call it as we please, so you'll be able to choose a single tool to use (Soulnight's, BerndFfm or my batch file) to do the whole work.

I can't wait to retire my batch file, but at the moment I have a loss of functionality or issues with either of the other tools, so I'd rather be able to call Soulnight's utility until this is resolved by one or the other. At the moment Soulnight's is the closest to my own needs as BerndFFm has evolved in a direction that doesn't work for me anymore (especially the measurements of undesired files).

One thing that I've added to my batch file is the option to force D3D11 native before the measurements for optimal performance, and an option to select D3D11 copyback afterwards if desired.

I'll upload a modified version when/if Soulnight offers a version that can be called from an outside batch/utility, so as to include all the changes in one update.
chros73 and NoTechi like this.
Manni01 is online now  
post #13 of 430 Old 01-03-2019, 04:43 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Manni01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,419
Mentioned: 245 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4930 Post(s)
Liked: 4801
Tiny possible display bug when measuring a folder and skipping already optimized files:

it looks like the file name displayed is the last completed (skipped) one during the optimization of a non-skipped file, instead of the file currently optimized.

For example, if film1 is skipped because already optimized, the utility displays "film1" during the optimization of "film2", which is a bit confusing, because by the time the data for "film2" is displayed, "film3" (if skipped) is displayed during the optimization of film4, etc.

Not a big deal obviously as the optimisations are fine, it can just be confusing as the user might be thinking that already measured titles are unnecessarily re-measured, and titles that should be measured are skipped (as their title is never displayed during the actual measurements, when everything is working fine.

Hope this makes sense
Manni01 is online now  
post #14 of 430 Old 01-03-2019, 04:46 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Soulnight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Germany
Posts: 986
Mentioned: 116 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 725 Post(s)
Liked: 822
madmeasuredynamicclipping Tool V2.9.8

Sooo... Update time!

madmeasure dynamic Tool V2.9.8

Download here:
http://projectiondream.com/wp-conten...8-Download.zip

NEW:

1) Mutiple path selection!
It also remembers:
a) that you had chosen "paths" last time you had the programm running
b) it remembers the paths you had chosen as well
--> So basically, you open the programm and if you want use the same settings as last time, just press Start!




2) Dynamic Target Nits during as movie!
--> To activate this, just check the "dynamic" checkbox next to "TARGET NITS Selection"

I advise to use "Flo" as a profile for both Static Target Nits and Dynamic Target Nits.
It is scalable with your real peak nits and works very well in my opinion.

For the dynamic target nits, you need to choose:
a) your real peak nits
b) Rolling avg time in frames--> I advise to keep it at the default value of 240 frames, it works very well like this.
c) Minimum Target Nits allowed --> Here I advise to peak your real nits to maximize dynamic advantages.
For @Manni01 of course, you can choose 200nits.
d) Maximum Target Nits allowed --> 1000nits default.

I'll tell more about the dynamic target nits algo tomorrow. But from my testing, it works very well and provide a completely new experience.
No more compromise!

NEW GUI:



Example of the automatic target nits on the MEG with the above selected settings and 107 peak nits:

Target Nits: 971


Target Nits: 975


Target Nits: 624


Target Nits: 643


Target Nits: 520


@madshi
Thanks again for the new measurement file format. It works great for dynamic target nits.
However, as I told you per PM and that you can now see on the screenshot, the madVR only reads the dynamic target nits from the measurement file, when "dynamic target nits" flag is selected in the measurement file.

That's it!


Enjoy
Anna&Flo
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	ChoosePaths.PNG
Views:	353
Size:	41.4 KB
ID:	2505212   Click image for larger version

Name:	TheMeg.PNG
Views:	336
Size:	246.2 KB
ID:	2505214   Click image for larger version

Name:	The_Meg.mkv_snapshot_00.04.35.jpg
Views:	947
Size:	3.02 MB
ID:	2505220   Click image for larger version

Name:	The_Meg.mkv_snapshot_00.04.55.jpg
Views:	918
Size:	2.78 MB
ID:	2505222   Click image for larger version

Name:	The_Meg.mkv_snapshot_00.07.16.jpg
Views:	851
Size:	3.00 MB
ID:	2505224  

Click image for larger version

Name:	The_Meg.mkv_snapshot_00.34.22.jpg
Views:	877
Size:	2.64 MB
ID:	2505226   Click image for larger version

Name:	The_Meg.mkv_snapshot_01.19.45.jpg
Views:	934
Size:	2.93 MB
ID:	2505228  
SamuriHL, Mevlock, Manni01 and 7 others like this.

Last edited by Soulnight; 01-03-2019 at 05:08 PM.
Soulnight is online now  
post #15 of 430 Old 01-03-2019, 05:00 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 92
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 68 Post(s)
Liked: 41
I'm getting a forbidden error on that link
Dexter Kane is online now  
post #16 of 430 Old 01-03-2019, 05:06 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Manni01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,419
Mentioned: 245 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4930 Post(s)
Liked: 4801
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dexter Kane View Post
I'm getting a forbidden error on that link
So do I.

@Soulnight , sounds great, can't wait to test this new version tomorrow.

Now that you support multiple paths (which is great!) please could we get a /auto switch to start scanning automatically with the latest settings used?
Manni01 is online now  
post #17 of 430 Old 01-03-2019, 05:08 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Soulnight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Germany
Posts: 986
Mentioned: 116 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 725 Post(s)
Liked: 822
Soulnight is online now  
post #18 of 430 Old 01-03-2019, 05:10 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 92
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 68 Post(s)
Liked: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulnight View Post
Yep, I'm going to give it a go now, can't wait to see how well it works.

If you don't mind me asking how does your method select the target nits?
Dexter Kane is online now  
post #19 of 430 Old 01-03-2019, 05:17 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Soulnight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Germany
Posts: 986
Mentioned: 116 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 725 Post(s)
Liked: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dexter Kane View Post
Yep, I'm going to give it a go now, can't wait to see how well it works.

If you don't mind me asking how does your method select the target nits?
For the static algo, I have included the description if you pass your mouse over "Target Nits recommended by Flo".

For dynamic, it's a bit more complicated...and I need now to go to sleep.
We'll discuss that later.

Flo

Edit: but I am not sure how well it scales well above 100nits.
Between 50 and 107 nits, it scales very well.
If you have way more than 107nits, you may want to "lie" and write 107nits instead for a first try.
Manni01 and Dexter Kane like this.

Last edited by Soulnight; 01-03-2019 at 05:25 PM.
Soulnight is online now  
post #20 of 430 Old 01-03-2019, 05:45 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 92
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 68 Post(s)
Liked: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulnight View Post
For the static algo, I have included the description if you pass your mouse over "Target Nits recommended by Flo".

For dynamic, it's a bit more complicated...and I need now to go to sleep.
We'll discuss that later.

Flo

Edit: but I am not sure how well it scales well above 100nits.
Between 50 and 107 nits, it scales very well.
If you have way more than 107nits, you may want to "lie" and write 107nits instead for a first try.
I've tried it with my actual measured screen nits (212) and while the selected target nits values were very high, 2 or 3 times what I would normally use, the results when playing are very good. I'll try a few more titles but one thing is that the brightness change can be quite noticeable, I'll try with a longer rolling average value. I've also noticed that often the dynamic target nits value is quite a lot higher than the tone mapping value, is your dynamic target nits algorithm being applied to the original measurements or the clipped measurements? It looks good I'm just wondering if it's intended or not.

EDIT: Actually, yeah I see what you mean, I will try it with a lower display nits value.
Manni01 likes this.

Last edited by Dexter Kane; 01-03-2019 at 05:57 PM.
Dexter Kane is online now  
post #21 of 430 Old 01-03-2019, 05:57 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Manni01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,419
Mentioned: 245 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4930 Post(s)
Liked: 4801
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulnight View Post
For the static algo, I have included the description if you pass your mouse over "Target Nits recommended by Flo".

For dynamic, it's a bit more complicated...and I need now to go to sleep.
We'll discuss that later.

Flo
I've done the measurements on my usual example titles, I like your targets better (assuming the dynamic targets work as intended, I haven't been able to do any visual testing).

Most of the time, we are very close, but on the titles where I need to compromise due to some dark scenes, your higher targets should provide better contrast and saturation on bright scenes, without losing shadow details on dark scenes. I attach a comparison, in bold the titles with the most differences.

If we could get more than five paths that would be useful.

Good night, will test tomorrow visually, it's too late to start the PJ now...

Looks very promising, well done
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	HDR Examples (Flo).JPG
Views:	37
Size:	288.1 KB
ID:	2505312  
Soulnight likes this.
Manni01 is online now  
post #22 of 430 Old 01-03-2019, 06:10 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 92
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 68 Post(s)
Liked: 41
It's interesting that without dynamic target nits when playing a video with a measurement file madvr doesn't seem to do any real time measuring and instead just reads values from the measurement file, which give a slight performance boost. But with dynamic target nits enabled it measures in real time again, and also there is less info about the measurements in the OSD (only frame/scene).
Dexter Kane is online now  
post #23 of 430 Old 01-03-2019, 07:23 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 92
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 68 Post(s)
Liked: 41
Okay I've tried out a few scenes using 107 for the display nits and for the most part it looks very good. The brightness change isn't distracting me anymore so that might only be an issue with using higher display nits, which doesn't seem to scale well as you said.

The only problem I'm seeing is that in some movies, like John Wick 2 and Deadpool for example there are scenes which are very dark but have some small but very bright lights in them which cause the target nits to be set much higher than it should (The bath scene in John Wick 2 at around 48 minutes). I'm not sure how your dynamic target nits works but I think it should look at the distribution of the highlights and not just the peak.

But it completely fixes movies which have very right and very dark scenes.
Soulnight likes this.
Dexter Kane is online now  
post #24 of 430 Old 01-03-2019, 08:37 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 112
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 72 Post(s)
Liked: 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dexter Kane View Post
Okay I've tried out a few scenes using 107 for the display nits and for the most part it looks very good. The brightness change isn't distracting me anymore so that might only be an issue with using higher display nits, which doesn't seem to scale well as you said.

The only problem I'm seeing is that in some movies, like John Wick 2 and Deadpool for example there are scenes which are very dark but have some small but very bright lights in them which cause the target nits to be set much higher than it should (The bath scene in John Wick 2 at around 48 minutes). I'm not sure how your dynamic target nits works but I think it should look at the distribution of the highlights and not just the peak.

But it completely fixes movies which have very right and very dark scenes.
I was messing around with this and I would say try and change your maximum target nit to a lower value for more brightness that's natural. Also, I am getting an error on my end. After scanning the measurement files it does it right. If I don't like it and delete the original folder it gives me an error saying a file should have 290 lines and mine has 291 afterward and won't scan again. This is the first time it's done this.
toby5 is offline  
post #25 of 430 Old 01-03-2019, 10:38 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 92
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 68 Post(s)
Liked: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by toby5 View Post
I was messing around with this and I would say try and change your maximum target nit to a lower value for more brightness that's natural. Also, I am getting an error on my end. After scanning the measurement files it does it right. If I don't like it and delete the original folder it gives me an error saying a file should have 290 lines and mine has 291 afterward and won't scan again. This is the first time it's done this.
If you've deleted the original you'll probably have to remeasure.

Changing the maximum doesn't really help, lowering the display nits does but I think scenes which are mostly bellow 100 nits but have a few very bright highlights should tend more towards a lower target nits than a higher one.

@Soulnight

I'm currently using a value of 75 for the display nits with a measured value of 212, so perhaps this should be renamed something else? Maybe treat it as a percentage value to adjust the overall target nits dynamic range? I think using the measured display nits as the minimal target nits is fairly objective and the display nits value can be used to adjust preference.

Overall from what I've looked at it's a huge improvement over static target nits.
Soulnight likes this.

Last edited by Dexter Kane; 01-03-2019 at 11:29 PM.
Dexter Kane is online now  
post #26 of 430 Old 01-04-2019, 01:02 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 48
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 42 Post(s)
Liked: 58
measurement file analyzer

For someone who might be interested in the dynamic target nits, ability to read @Soulnight dynamic target nits data.

Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	2019-1-4.JPG
Views:	311
Size:	134.5 KB
ID:	2505418  
Attached Files
File Type: zip madMeasurementAnalyzer.zip (29.2 KB, 26 views)
pandm1967 is offline  
post #27 of 430 Old 01-04-2019, 03:40 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Manni01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,419
Mentioned: 245 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4930 Post(s)
Liked: 4801
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dexter Kane View Post
If you've deleted the original you'll probably have to remeasure.

Changing the maximum doesn't really help, lowering the display nits does but I think scenes which are mostly bellow 100 nits but have a few very bright highlights should tend more towards a lower target nits than a higher one.

@Soulnight

I'm currently using a value of 75 for the display nits with a measured value of 212, so perhaps this should be renamed something else? Maybe treat it as a percentage value to adjust the overall target nits dynamic range? I think using the measured display nits as the minimal target nits is fairly objective and the display nits value can be used to adjust preference.

Overall from what I've looked at it's a huge improvement over static target nits.
If you use any value below 200nits for the minimum target you will most likely cause visible fluctuation below diffuse white in the content (0-100nits will be tonemapped, which you should avoid with your 200+nits actual brightness). The measured display nits shouldn't be used as a minimal target UNLESS you have more than 200nits.

I personally would like to keep actual (measured) display nits as a parameter and change the scaling if it doesn't work, because that's what we want to end up with.

Did you try using 107nits (or 100nits) as the actual display brightness and 200nits as the minimum target? I plan to do tests this morning but haven't been able to do so yet.

My current settings are 100nits actual display nits, 200-4000nits min/max, flo algo. With these settings the static targets seem very good. I'll tell you about the dynamic target within a couple of hours hopefully.
Manni01 is online now  
post #28 of 430 Old 01-04-2019, 04:07 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 92
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 68 Post(s)
Liked: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
If you use any value below 200nits for the minimum target you will most likely cause visible fluctuation below diffuse white in the content (0-100nits will be tonemapped, which you should avoid with your 200+nits actual brightness). The measured display nits shouldn't be used as a minimal target UNLESS you have more than 200nits.

I personally would like to keep actual (measured) display nits as a parameter and change the scaling if it doesn't work, because that's what we want to end up with.

Did you try using 107nits (or 100nits) as the actual display brightness and 200nits as the minimum target? I plan to do tests this morning but haven't been able to do so yet.

My current settings are 100nits actual display nits, 200-4000nits min/max, flo algo. With these settings the static targets seem very good. I'll tell you about the dynamic target within a couple of hours hopefully.
I tried a bunch of display nits values and settled on 75 for now. When I originally tried 212 the dynamic target was often too high but also there was noticeable and distracting brightness fluctuations. I'm currently watching Close Encounters of the Third Kind and it looks great. This one was hard to select a profile for because it has a lot of highlights but also a lot of scenes at night, using the dynamic target nits it's working perfectly. But there have been a few scenes that I've checked which I didn't like, like the one in John Wick 2 I mentioned earlier, which is mostly bellow 100nits except for a few candles but the dynamic target selects 800-900nits.
Soulnight likes this.
Dexter Kane is online now  
post #29 of 430 Old 01-04-2019, 04:13 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Manni01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,419
Mentioned: 245 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4930 Post(s)
Liked: 4801
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dexter Kane View Post
I tried a bunch of display nits values and settled on 75 for now. When I originally tried 212 the dynamic target was often too high but also there was noticeable and distracting brightness fluctuations. I'm currently watching Close Encounters of the Third Kind and it looks great. This one was hard to select a profile for because it has a lot of highlights but also a lot of scenes at night, using the dynamic target nits it's working perfectly. But there have been a few scenes that I've checked which I didn't like, like the one in John Wick 2 I mentioned earlier, which is mostly bellow 100nits except for a few candles but the dynamic target selects 800-900nits.
Yes I understand but my question was specifically about minimum target? Did you limit it to 200nits? The 100nits default is way too low for your/my display to not get fluctuations. It's fine if you have 50nits actual peak, but not if you have 100 or 200nits actual peak. You really don't want (and don't need) any dynamic target to be below 200nits if you don't have to, and I haven't found a title that needs a lower target than 200nits even for very dark scenes.

I am in a bat loft, with a fully dedicated room and no ambient light, so that might be a factor. But irrespective of that, any target below 200nits is likely to cause fluctuation of 0-100nits in the content, due to the tonemapping. You want to avoid that at all cost. This is why I'm suggesting you focus on the minimum target if you see unwanted fluctuations, instead of lowering the measured display peak, especially below 100nits when you have more than 200nits. That can't be right.

About to start visual testing, I'll report back in a while.
Dexter Kane likes this.
Manni01 is online now  
post #30 of 430 Old 01-04-2019, 04:17 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 92
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 68 Post(s)
Liked: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Yes I understand but my question was specifically about minimum target? Did you limit it to 200nits? The 100nits default is way too low for your/my display to not get fluctuations. It's fine if you have 50nits actual peak, but not if you have 100 or 200nits actual peak. You really don't want (and don't need) any dynamic target to be below 200nits if you don't have to, and I haven't found a title that needs a lower target than 200nits even for very dark scenes.

I am in a bat loft, with a fully dedicated room and no ambient light, so that might be a factor. But irrespective of that, any target below 200nits is likely to cause fluctuation of 0-100nits in the content, due to the tonemapping. You want to avoid that at all cost. This is why I'm suggesting you focus on the minimum target if you see unwanted fluctuations, instead of lowering the measured display peak, especially below 100nits when you have more than 200nits. That can't be right.

About to start visual testing, I'll report back in a while.
I've only been using a minimum of 200. The brightness fluctuations seemed to be caused by very large changes to the target nits. Why I thought the minimal target could be replaced with the display nits is because you shouldn't want a target nits value lower than your display. If in your case you want a 1:2 brightness then you would use double your actual nits but it's the same thing.

Last edited by Dexter Kane; 01-04-2019 at 04:27 AM.
Dexter Kane is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Home Theater Computers



Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off