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post #1 of 25 Old 01-12-2019, 01:50 PM - Thread Starter
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How long until we see 4K@240Hz refresh panels?

HDMI2.1 supports 4K up to 240Hz (@8bpc/24-bit/pix and using DSC compression).

HDMI2.1 also supports 8K up to 120Hz (@10bpc/30-bit/pix and using DSC compression).

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI

So it seems likely that now that 8K TV are hitting the market with only 60Hz or even only 30Hz refresh rates, and now that HDMI2.1 has arrived, there is probably going to be a race to see whi can be first to drliver 8K with 120Hz Native Refresh Rate.

That's going to require doubling of backplane speed from today's peak levels of 4K@120Hz (or 144Hz) and so those same 8K@120Hz backplanes will be capable of delivering 4K@240Hz Native Refresh Rates.

So the three questions I'm soliciting opinions on are:

1/ How long before we see 8K@120Hz?

2/ How long beyond that before we see 4K@240Hz?

3/ Why on earth does the HDMI 2.1 standard only support 4K240Hz at 8bpc/24-bit/pix and not 10bpc/30-bit/pix?
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post #2 of 25 Old 01-12-2019, 04:47 PM
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Is the jump from 120 fps to 240 fps really perceptible? I wish there was any 120 Hz content for my C8, let alone 240 Hz... In answer to your question 3, I guess the extra fps of the Panel would only be used for BFI at 120fps content, thus it doesn‘t really matter if 240 Hz content is supported in HDMI 2.1... Just my opinion, in VR it would be a different story I guess.

New to this forum but read a lot of your posts, very informative, thanks!
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post #3 of 25 Old 01-12-2019, 05:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by th1nk View Post
Is the jump from 120 fps to 240 fps really perceptible? I wish there was any 120 Hz content for my C8, let alone 240 Hz... In answer to your question 3, I guess the extra fps of the Panel would only be used for BFI at 120fps content, thus it doesn‘t really matter if 240 Hz content is supported in HDMI 2.1... Just my opinion, in VR it would be a different story I guess.

New to this forum but read a lot of your posts, very informative, thanks!
There are only 3 reasons I see that 240Hz refresh rates could be uesful (and 240Hz content or even true 120Hz content ain't one of them):

-For live-action sports, you'd be able to further drive down persistance (MPRT) from the ~4ms LG is delivering on the 2019 WOLEDs to at least half that level if not lower. For reference, plasma is generally considered to have an MPRT of ~1.7ms and CRT was generally considered to have had MPRT of ~1ms.

-For 24Hz content, having VRR support all the way up to 240Hz would allow 'triple-shutter' presentation of 24fps content through a 144Hz VRR stream (three frame repeats interleaved with three frame blanks, just like the projectors of yore). The 2019 WOLEDs should support a 'double-shutter' stream @ 96Hz, but they wouldn't have developed triple-shutter projectors if they didn't perform better than double-shutter projectors ).

-One of the unspoken advantages of BFI will be to improve near-black uniformity (because you'll have frames displaying farther out of black (where uniformity is better) for a fraction of the time. Even avoiding frame interpolation by using frame repeat for 60Hz content, viewing that with 75%BFI @ 240Hz should provide a significant improvement to near-black uniformity)...

These are all pretty minor improvements, but if manufacturers get 8K backplane speeds up to 120Hz, they come 'for free' on 240Hz 4K panels, so why not?
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post #4 of 25 Old 01-14-2019, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
HDMI2.1 supports 4K up to 240Hz (@8bpc/24-bit/pix and using DSC compression).

HDMI2.1 also supports 8K up to 120Hz (@10bpc/30-bit/pix and using DSC compression).

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI

So it seems likely that now that 8K TV are hitting the market with only 60Hz or even only 30Hz refresh rates, and now that HDMI2.1 has arrived, there is probably going to be a race to see whi can be first to drliver 8K with 120Hz Native Refresh Rate.

That's going to require doubling of backplane speed from today's peak levels of 4K@120Hz (or 144Hz) and so those same 8K@120Hz backplanes will be capable of delivering 4K@240Hz Native Refresh Rates.

So the three questions I'm soliciting opinions on are:

1/ How long before we see 8K@120Hz?

2/ How long beyond that before we see 4K@240Hz?

3/ Why on earth does the HDMI 2.1 standard only support 4K240Hz at 8bpc/24-bit/pix and not 10bpc/30-bit/pix?
Here is a video below Of why I am getting a 2019 LG C9 4K because of HDMI 2.1 and how the OLED handles motion seeing this in person is just beyond amazing. Imagine NFL Games not at 60Hz but at 120Hz it feels like you are there.


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post #5 of 25 Old 01-14-2019, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Ice Cold View Post
Here is a video below Of why I am getting a 2019 LG C9 4K because of HDMI 2.1 and how the OLED handles motion seeing this in person is just beyond amazing. Imagine NFL Games not at 60Hz but at 120Hz it feels like you are there.

Looks good... I'll definitely be interested in 2026 or whenever it is Comcast gets off their arse and updates their programming from 720p/1080.


As it is right now Comcast programming is the worst looking content of everything I do on my OLED. Glad I bought it for movie watching.

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post #6 of 25 Old 01-14-2019, 06:41 AM
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99.99% of broadcasters are barely moving their asses off of 720p/1080i. 4K has barely scratched the surface in broadcasting, and only NHK Japan has just some demo 8K content.

I don't think broadcasters will every go beyond 60Hz honestly, no matter if it will be 4K or 8K, but either way, it's going to be AT LEAST 5 years until we will see anything of the sorts.

I think this is just a case where the technology is moving faster than the rest of the industry is willing to. Having a 240Hz panel only to do pulldown for 60Hz content will only do so much. And as I said, I don't think broadcasters feel any incentive to go past 60Hz.
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post #7 of 25 Old 01-14-2019, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by snapilica2003 View Post
I don't think broadcasters feel any incentive to go past 60Hz.
Shouldn't they though? Their entire industry has been disrupted. The networks are hanging around by selling their content online but what about the local affiliates.

The whole reason they embraced HD so enthusiastically was so they could be relevant again in a world of cable and satellite. Now they are on the verge of extinction and they are dragging their feet because they don't want to pay for another equipment upgrade.
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post #8 of 25 Old 01-14-2019, 12:24 PM
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Man I wish that HFR demo material was available for download. The C8 also can do HFR via internal apps, I would really like to check that out. Anyone know anything? I hope the new AV1 codec will make HFR streaming possible. But first 4k HDR sports streams have to be introduced, I hope DAZN has something in the pipeline...
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post #9 of 25 Old 01-14-2019, 01:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by snapilica2003 View Post
99.99% of broadcasters are barely moving their asses off of 720p/1080i. 4K has barely scratched the surface in broadcasting, and only NHK Japan has just some demo 8K content.

I don't think broadcasters will every go beyond 60Hz honestly, no matter if it will be 4K or 8K, but either way, it's going to be AT LEAST 5 years until we will see anything of the sorts.

I think this is just a case where the technology is moving faster than the rest of the industry is willing to. Having a 240Hz panel only to do pulldown for 60Hz content will only do so much. And as I said, I don't think broadcasters feel any incentive to go past 60Hz.
60Hz interpolated up to 120Hz and displayed with 50% or even possibly 75% BFI would look pretty sweet...
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post #10 of 25 Old 01-14-2019, 03:46 PM
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Man I wish that HFR demo material was available for download. The C8 also can do HFR via internal apps, I would really like to check that out. Anyone know anything? I hope the new AV1 codec will make HFR streaming possible. But first 4k HDR sports streams have to be introduced, I hope DAZN has something in the pipeline...
Try this


http://www.blurbusters.com/hfr-120f...ame-recording/


I've seen some other HFR demo files floating out there too.

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post #11 of 25 Old 01-14-2019, 03:55 PM
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The reason is the same as it always has been. Why the change from 720 to 1080 to 4K to 8K. From 2D to 3D. From 60 to 120 to 240 refresh rates. Local dimming, quantum dots, HDR, LCD, LED, OLED etc, etc. They want to sell you a new TV even if you can not perceive the difference.
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post #12 of 25 Old 01-14-2019, 04:38 PM - Thread Starter
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The reason is the same as it always has been. Why the change from 720 to 1080 to 4K to 8K. From 2D to 3D. From 60 to 120 to 240 refresh rates. Local dimming, quantum dots, HDR, LCD, LED, OLED etc, etc. They want to sell you a new TV even if you can not perceive the difference.
For increases in resolution and HDR / increases in color gamut and EOTF, you are spot-on.

For increases in refresh rate, only party so.

Those who have owned CRT know that display technology took a big step backwards in motion performance when we moved from a bright impulse-mode display (CRT) to a relatively dim sample-and-hold display (LCD).

Coupled with the peak brigtness increases being delivered for HDR, high-frame-rate and variable-refresh-rates peomise to bring motion performance a step closer to what it once was...
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post #13 of 25 Old 01-15-2019, 02:51 AM
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Shouldn't they though? Their entire industry has been disrupted. The networks are hanging around by selling their content online but what about the local affiliates.

The whole reason they embraced HD so enthusiastically was so they could be relevant again in a world of cable and satellite. Now they are on the verge of extinction and they are dragging their feet because they don't want to pay for another equipment upgrade.
But if you're talking about movies and TV shows, that's 24p and always will be. The only remaining stuff for 60Hz and above is for live TV, sports, news, game shows, etc.
Sure they will be forced to soon adopt 4K as a common format, and after that 8K, but they have no incentive to go past 60Hz IMO. A lot of what you see is 24p anyway.
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post #14 of 25 Old 01-15-2019, 02:56 AM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
60Hz interpolated up to 120Hz and displayed with 50% or even possibly 75% BFI would look pretty sweet...
4K 60fps sports look pretty sweet to me, no BFI needed. And it's perfectly OK for most people. Going over that will benefit too few people to make it worth it for broadcasters. As said, this is only relevant for sports, live tv, game shows, etc.

Movies and TV Shows will always be 24p and all the HFR attempts (The Hobbit) were usually not received well.
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post #15 of 25 Old 01-15-2019, 03:57 AM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
For increases in resolution and HDR / increases in color gamut and EOTF, you are spot-on.

For increases in refresh rate, only party so.

Those who have owned CRT know that display technology took a big step backwards in motion performance when we moved from a bright impulse-mode display (CRT) to a relatively dim sample-and-hold display (LCD).
Time flies. Soon that demographic will be seriously diminishing. I feel it will be more a matter of "this is the new feature you have to have because we say so". The fact that the benefit will be real is going to be completely coincidental.
Although, I have to admit I don't have a clear picture of when CRTs ended being THE market. Beginning of the century? Earlier? Later?

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post #16 of 25 Old 01-15-2019, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by snapilica2003 View Post
4K 60fps sports look pretty sweet to me, no BFI needed. And it's perfectly OK for most people. Going over that will benefit too few people to make it worth it for broadcasters. As said, this is only relevant for sports, live tv, game shows, etc.

Movies and TV Shows will always be 24p and all the HFR attempts (The Hobbit) were usually not received well.
This thread was not about broadcasters, but backplanes (Refresh Rates).

Take your 60fps sports, interpolate up to 120Hz, and the lay in 50% or even 75% BFI - when watching the highest-action sports like tennis or hocky, it will look better (and at no cost to the broadcaster).

And as far as cinema, a 240Hz backplane will allow you to support a 144Hz triple-shutter presentation of 24p content through VRR, no HFR needed (and no change to the content) needed...
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post #17 of 25 Old 01-16-2019, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
This thread was not about broadcasters, but backplanes (Refresh Rates).

Take your 60fps sports, interpolate up to 120Hz, and the lay in 50% or even 75% BFI - when watching the highest-action sports like tennis or hocky, it will look better (and at no cost to the broadcaster).

And as far as cinema, a 240Hz backplane will allow you to support a 144Hz triple-shutter presentation of 24p content through VRR, no HFR needed (and no change to the content) needed...
All OLEDs are 120Hz at 4K. And the newly launched 8K TV from OLED is also at 120Hz.
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post #18 of 25 Old 01-16-2019, 09:06 AM
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I have FIOS and I think there are times where the content is broadcast at 5 fps. My other option is Comcast where everything is 720p. But I can record 12 shows at once. The cable industry has actually gone backwards technologically over the past few years.
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post #19 of 25 Old 01-16-2019, 09:52 AM
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8K 120 Hz back-plane could actually run 4K at 480 Hz.
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post #20 of 25 Old 01-16-2019, 12:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by snapilica2003 View Post
All OLEDs are 120Hz at 4K. And the newly launched 8K TV from OLED is also at 120Hz.
Sorry, but that is incorrect. The 88Z9 has a maximum refresh rate of 8K @ 60Hz.

If you've got specs of a press release from LG to the contrary, I'm all ears (or rather eyes ). But you don't.
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post #21 of 25 Old 01-16-2019, 12:15 PM - Thread Starter
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8K 120 Hz back-plane could actually run 4K at 480 Hz.
When speaking about pixel throughput into the TV (ie: through HDMI), the 4X multiplier is correct - a data rate of 8K @ 120Hz corresponds to a datarate of 4K @ 480Hz.

But when talking about backplane refresh speeds, it is only a 2X multiplier (because 8C columns contain twice as many rows as 4K columns).

So a 8K backplane that can refresh a full 8K frame (4320 rows) @ 120Hz corresponds to a backplane speed that could refresh a full 4K frame (2160 rows) @ 240Hz.

Both of those backplanes wil be writing one row every 1.93 micro-seconds...
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post #22 of 25 Old 01-16-2019, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
HDMI2.1 supports 4K up to 240Hz (@8bpc/24-bit/pix and using DSC compression).

HDMI2.1 also supports 8K up to 120Hz (@10bpc/30-bit/pix and using DSC compression).

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI

So it seems likely that now that 8K TV are hitting the market with only 60Hz or even only 30Hz refresh rates, and now that HDMI2.1 has arrived, there is probably going to be a race to see whi can be first to drliver 8K with 120Hz Native Refresh Rate.

That's going to require doubling of backplane speed from today's peak levels of 4K@120Hz (or 144Hz) and so those same 8K@120Hz backplanes will be capable of delivering 4K@240Hz Native Refresh Rates.

So the three questions I'm soliciting opinions on are:

1/ How long before we see 8K@120Hz?

2/ How long beyond that before we see 4K@240Hz?

3/ Why on earth does the HDMI 2.1 standard only support 4K240Hz at 8bpc/24-bit/pix and not 10bpc/30-bit/pix?
I don't think people WANT 120fps content, outside of games I think it will cause problems with people. Look back at the Hobbit movies, yes they sucked, but with the HFR version, many many many people hated that version of the movie. I watched all 3 in HFR and enjoyed them but at the same time shots of peoples face were hands down without question the most REAL looking things I had ever seen. That was IMO due to the doubled frame rate, more frames per second the more detail your eye is going to pick up. That is very similar to the SOE that EVERYONE seems to hate.
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post #23 of 25 Old 01-16-2019, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by snapilica2003 View Post
99.99% of broadcasters are barely moving their asses off of 720p/1080i. 4K has barely scratched the surface in broadcasting, and only NHK Japan has just some demo 8K content.

I don't think broadcasters will every go beyond 60Hz honestly, no matter if it will be 4K or 8K, but either way, it's going to be AT LEAST 5 years until we will see anything of the sorts.

I think this is just a case where the technology is moving faster than the rest of the industry is willing to. Having a 240Hz panel only to do pulldown for 60Hz content will only do so much. And as I said, I don't think broadcasters feel any incentive to go past 60Hz.
TV manufacturers and/or streaming companies would need to be the ones to collaborate with sports leagues to push this. Say LG doing a cross-promotion/ad campaign with the NBA that creates a WebOS League Pass app where you can get the games in 4k HLG HDR at 120fps (not that all 3 of these things would be available in all games from the start, but at least some of them). Or say Amazon taking Sunday Ticket away the next time it's available and pushing this tech on their Prime app. Right now most of the sports league's streaming apps aren't really pushing PQ and bitrates as much as they can, here is where these other tv & tech players can create that push. This is where it would happen because cable/sat companies aren't going to do a damn thing.
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post #24 of 25 Old 01-17-2019, 01:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Ice Cold View Post
Here is a video below Of why I am getting a 2019 LG C9 4K because of HDMI 2.1 and how the OLED handles motion seeing this in person is just beyond amazing. Imagine NFL Games not at 60Hz but at 120Hz it feels like you are there.


http://youtu.be/KUMJv1_JCwk
Yeah, for sports I'd much rather see 4K@120 (or even 1080@120) than 8K@60.
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post #25 of 25 Old 01-17-2019, 12:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, for sports I'd much rather see 4K@120 (or even 1080@120) than 8K@60.
That was exactly the purpose of this thread - it is about backplane speed, not content.

With 4K60Hz sports being displayed on a 4K pannel supporting 240Hz Native Refresh Rate, you'll be able to interpolate to 120Hz and use 75% BFI for persistsnce (MPRT) of 2.1ms...

The 2019 WOLEDs already support an Effective Refresh Rate of 240Hz, so you can display 60Hz sports with MPRT of 4.2ms (LG claims 3.5ms), but going below that is going to require moving from 240Hz Effective to 240Hz Native (the backplane speed needed to achieve 8K@120Hz...).
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