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post #61 of 25251 Old 11-18-2015, 08:35 AM
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Naive question: On sets like the Vizio M models that are 4k models without HDR, can you download and play some of the HDR encoded 4k clips and derive the 4k benefit without paying a penalty for not having HDR capability?

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post #62 of 25251 Old 11-18-2015, 09:29 AM
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Is there a list somewhere of all the 4K TV's that support HDR? Is HDR only available on the high end more expensive TV's?
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post #63 of 25251 Old 11-18-2015, 09:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonymoody View Post
Wow those comparo shots are amazing. Thanks for doing that. My kids are Smurfts 2 fans so I may also bite the bullet for that one. Have Spidey 2 which looks quite nice. Wish they weren't $30...

EDIT: just tried to find Smurfs 2 and Pineapple Express in UHD on Amazon but don't find them. Doesn't seem to matter which version I click on, I don't see an option for the UHD $29.99 one like I do with Spiderman 2. What am I missing??

Amazon revamped their UI yesterday, did yours switch over? If it did, you gotta scroll down all the way near the bottom and there will be a uhd movie section and a uhd tv section.





Edit: it looks like when amazon did their UI revamp yesterday, at least half of their UHD movies went missing. They'll probably be added back soon, there's quite a bit missing.

2nd edit: it seems that it takes a few minutes for the rest of hte movies to load. very odd. the new amazon setup is junk, hopefully the bugs get worked out. for example if u click movie info, and then backspace out of the movie info, it takes you back to the beginning of the list and you have to start over instead of taking you to the spot you were just at in the library.

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post #64 of 25251 Old 11-18-2015, 09:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boostm3 View Post
Naive question: On sets like the Vizio M models that are 4k models without HDR, can you download and play some of the HDR encoded 4k clips and derive the 4k benefit without paying a penalty for not having HDR capability?
On these downloadable files, they will wash out.

It won't be until 4k discs that the tv will "skip" the hdr metadata.
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post #65 of 25251 Old 11-18-2015, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boostm3 View Post
Naive question: On sets like the Vizio M models that are 4k models without HDR, can you download and play some of the HDR encoded 4k clips and derive the 4k benefit without paying a penalty for not having HDR capability?
If you mean the user generated content, right now, most of those don't use HDR10 meta data flags, so your TV won't know what to do and the image will likely look much worse than an SDR clip of the same content.

If you mean the commercial content available from (for example) the in-TV Amazon app, then yes, it will look fine/good on a Vizio M model. The TV will know it cannot handle HDR and will show the 4k content in SDR and look very good. (Disclosure: I have an M series TV and this is how it is handling UHD HDR content from Amazon.)
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post #66 of 25251 Old 11-18-2015, 10:41 AM - Thread Starter
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I added a few titles to the VUDU DOLBY VISION list, i also added which movies are Dolby Atmos as pointed out in a few articles posted in the past 24 hours.
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post #67 of 25251 Old 11-18-2015, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
I added a few titles to the VUDU DOLBY VISION list, i also added which movies are Dolby Atmos as pointed out in a few articles posted in the past 24 hours.
Hi. I just got Sony Xbr55x850c and am wondering how I would know if HDR has kicked in. I tried the Amazon shows posted here but I am not sure if it us the 4K version only playing or if it's the 4K HDR version. Please advise. Thanks.
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post #68 of 25251 Old 11-18-2015, 11:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by qualboy88 View Post
Hi. I just got Sony Xbr55x850c and am wondering how I would know if HDR has kicked in. I tried the Amazon shows posted here but I am not sure if it us the 4K version only playing or if it's the 4K HDR version. Please advise. Thanks.
Make sure your firmware is up to date. the HDR update for that tv I believe came out last month. Make sure you can see the HDR badge on the show info, before you actually play it. when you go to click on an episode, scroll to the left and click on the area I have highlighted in yellow in the pictures, next you'll see the next screen, make sure you have this HDR badge before you can even start to think that you might be watching it in HDR. also, make sure you are checking in the specific UHD TV section.
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post #69 of 25251 Old 11-18-2015, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
Amazon revamped their UI yesterday, did yours switch over? If it did, you gotta scroll down all the way near the bottom and there will be a uhd movie section and a uhd tv section.





Edit: it looks like when amazon did their UI revamp yesterday, at least half of their UHD movies went missing. They'll probably be added back soon, there's quite a bit missing.

2nd edit: it seems that it takes a few minutes for the rest of hte movies to load. very odd. the new amazon setup is junk, hopefully the bugs get worked out. for example if u click movie info, and then backspace out of the movie info, it takes you back to the beginning of the list and you have to start over instead of taking you to the spot you were just at in the library.
Thanks for double checking. Happy it's not a me problem

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post #70 of 25251 Old 11-18-2015, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
Make sure your firmware is up to date. the HDR update for that tv I believe came out last month. Make sure you can see the HDR badge on the show info, before you actually play it. when you go to click on an episode, scroll to the left and click on the area I have highlighted in yellow in the pictures, next you'll see the next screen, make sure you have this HDR badge before you can even start to think that you might be watching it in HDR. also, make sure you are checking in the specific UHD TV section.
Thank you very much. I will try this.
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post #71 of 25251 Old 11-18-2015, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
Make sure your firmware is up to date. the HDR update for that tv I believe came out last month. Make sure you can see the HDR badge on the show info, before you actually play it. when you go to click on an episode, scroll to the left and click on the area I have highlighted in yellow in the pictures, next you'll see the next screen, make sure you have this HDR badge before you can even start to think that you might be watching it in HDR. also, make sure you are checking in the specific UHD TV section.
I have a Samsung JS8500 and when I open the Amazon app I do not get the HRD badge. I know this show is in HDR. See photo.
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post #72 of 25251 Old 11-18-2015, 03:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Gator1 View Post
I have a Samsung JS8500 and when I open the Amazon app I do not get the HRD badge. I know this show is in HDR. See photo.

Make sure you're specifically in the uhd section. If your not, you will see the HD version like you posted here. I double checked today and there are indeed 2 versions, so find it in the uhd tv section.

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post #73 of 25251 Old 11-18-2015, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
Make sure your specifically in the uhd section. If your not, you will see the HD version like you posted here. I double checked today and there are indeed 2 versions, so find it in the uhd tv section.
You are correct. I did just that and found the one that does say HDR. Did not know there was two. Thanks.
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post #74 of 25251 Old 11-19-2015, 12:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Is there a list somewhere of all the 4K TV's that support HDR? Is HDR only available on the high end more expensive TV's?

You can probably Google it. But the degree of how the hdr is displayed really varies from tv to tv depending on the capabilities of the specific panel (nits/color gamut/dimming type).

Technically Currently all 2015 4k sonys, all 2015 samsung 4k tv's can decode and display hdr, but the upper models are alot better with both brands. I think the only hdr LG tvs are the oleds. Panasonic has 1 or 2, the cx850? 2014 samsungs got hdr by the 2015 upgrade kit but the hdr on those sets really vary on the model as those sets weren't designed for hdr. And then there's the vizio R series.

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post #75 of 25251 Old 11-19-2015, 08:21 AM
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And the newly introduced JVC projectors (except the entry level model).

(BTW, for the Samsung, in 4k they have what they call UHD and SUHD models, and IIRC only the latter support HDR.)
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post #76 of 25251 Old 11-19-2015, 08:26 AM - Thread Starter
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And the newly introduced JVC projectors (except the entry level model).

(BTW, for the Samsung, in 4k they have what they call UHD and SUHD models, and IIRC only the latter support HDR.)
Samsung announced at IFA that the lower models would get an hdr update, but like I said it is limited to how it will look depending on panel capabilities.
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post #77 of 25251 Old 11-19-2015, 10:02 AM
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Samsung announced at IFA that the lower models would get an hdr update, but like I said it is limited to how it will look depending on panel capabilities.
That's cool. Do the internal apps support it too?
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post #78 of 25251 Old 11-19-2015, 10:56 AM - Thread Starter
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That's cool. Do the internal apps support it too?
I believe so. Though I haven't seen many of those users active in the hdr threads.
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post #79 of 25251 Old 11-19-2015, 01:15 PM
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In regards to the streaming comments, even 35 gig files would blow through your monthly data cap pretty fast depending on how often you stream them. At 100 gigs, that would kill a third of your monthly cap.
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post #80 of 25251 Old 11-19-2015, 01:32 PM
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On these downloadable files, they will wash out.

It won't be until 4k discs that the tv will "skip" the hdr metadata.
That is not an accurate assessment of what is happening. The non HDR TVs already ignore the HDR metadata and so they do not apply any auto correction to the ungraded footage that is stored as the HDR content.

Once the HDR UHD Blu-ray players come out those players will automatically recognize that the Tv does not support HDR and they will automatically apply the standard REC.709 color grading to the image that they output for non-HDR TVs.

In the meantime you can manually adjust the Vizio TVs to give you the desired output you want from HDR content up to the limits of REC.709.
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post #81 of 25251 Old 11-19-2015, 01:36 PM
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In regards to the streaming comments, even 35 gig files would blow through your monthly data cap pretty fast depending on how often you stream them. At 100 gigs, that would kill a third of your monthly cap.
What data cap?
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post #82 of 25251 Old 11-19-2015, 01:38 PM
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On these downloadable files, they will wash out.
So many people don't understand that the HDR content is stored ungraded and that natively it should look washed out. Because there is no definitive color standard at the moment for HDR the color grading must be done in real-time by the TV or player.

Right now your TV is automatically adjusting the washed out picture so that it gives the “HDR” affect. The content is stored ungraded on the disc. If it was stored graded then what specification would they grade it to? If they graded it to something less than what your TV is capable of then you would lose color fidelity when your TV graded it again to utilize its full capabilities. If they grade it past the capabilities of your TV then you would get clipped colors.
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post #83 of 25251 Old 11-19-2015, 03:42 PM
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So many people don't understand that the HDR content is stored ungraded and that natively it should look washed out. Because there is no definitive color standard at the moment for HDR the color grading must be done in real-time by the TV or player.
There is a definitive standard for the gamma transfer, it's been adopted by SMPTE as ST-2084. There is also a definitive color standard, it's bt-2020. Within that bt-2020 color space which encompasses all of rec 709 and P3, you can scale the RGB primaries and white point for any subset with st-2086 metadata. The grading per se has already been done by a colorist and is baked into the HEVC file. What the display or player must do, is a matrix transformation to RGB in accordance with the gamma table used by the display

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Right now your TV is automatically adjusting the washed out picture so that it gives the “HDR” affect. The content is stored ungraded on the disc. If it was stored graded then what specification would they grade it to? If they graded it to something less than what your TV is capable of then you would lose color fidelity when your TV graded it again to utilize its full capabilities. If they grade it past the capabilities of your TV then you would get clipped colors.
The reason the picture appears washed out is because the display doesn't have st-2084 transformation, only 709. With uncompressed video, it's possible to transform between one mapping and the other, but once the video has been compressed to 709 (HEVC is lossy), the upper highlight stops are compressed into just a few shades and become under represented by the bit budget.

It's going to be the case that an HDR player can output HDR or SDR to a display from an st-2084 video transfer. An HDR capable display can do the same thing but why would it? It already plays both types!

So what's left? A 4k display without HDR and without a player has no means to transfer st-2084 to rec 709 gamma, so the image will play flat.
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What data cap?
Data is capped at 250 gigs/month under my current plan with Suddenlink.
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post #85 of 25251 Old 11-19-2015, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
So many people don't understand that the HDR content is stored ungraded and that natively it should look washed out. Because there is no definitive color standard at the moment for HDR the color grading must be done in real-time by the TV or player.

Right now your TV is automatically adjusting the washed out picture so that it gives the “HDR” affect. The content is stored ungraded on the disc. If it was stored graded then what specification would they grade it to? If they graded it to something less than what your TV is capable of then you would lose color fidelity when your TV graded it again to utilize its full capabilities. If they grade it past the capabilities of your TV then you would get clipped colors.



And that is what is reportedly happening for Home Video HDR, the content does in fact get graded to an absolute level. The TV uses the metadata to adjust/optimize for its own capabilities which can fall short of the original grading.
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post #86 of 25251 Old 11-19-2015, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Roper View Post
There is a definitive standard for the gamma transfer, it's been adopted by SMPTE as ST-2084. There is also a definitive color standard, it's bt-2020. Within that bt-2020 color space which encompasses all of rec 709 and P3, you can scale the RGB primaries and white point for any subset with st-2086 metadata. The grading per se has already been done by a colorist and is baked into the HEVC file. What the display or player must do, is a matrix transformation to RGB in accordance with the gamma table used by the display



The reason the picture appears washed out is because the display doesn't have st-2084 transformation, only 709. With uncompressed video, it's possible to transform between one mapping and the other, but once the video has been compressed to 709 (HEVC is lossy), the upper highlight stops are compressed into just a few shades and become under represented by the bit budget.

It's going to be the case that an HDR player can output HDR or SDR to a display from an st-2084 video transfer. An HDR capable display can do the same thing but why would it? It already plays both types!

So what's left? A 4k display without HDR and without a player has no means to transfer st-2084 to rec 709 gamma, so the image will play flat.
Great explanation Tom
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post #87 of 25251 Old 11-19-2015, 07:23 PM - Thread Starter
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NEW HDR SHOW ADDED TO AMAZON


Looks like amazon decided to add a show a day early. The man in the high castle is now on amazon with 10 episodes in HDR.

a little background its a sci fi show about an alternate world where the nazis actually won world war 2. A few big name networks refused the show because it was too graphic, or just flat out "too much" for a big name network to take on. i forget the exact wording. so amazon gladly picked it up. the article i read said that "amazon is banking on this being a huge hit". and from the trailer, it looks dam good!



http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1740299/
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post #88 of 25251 Old 11-20-2015, 07:38 AM
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Man the Amazon thing is really pissing me off. I'm actually ready to drop $30 on Smurfs 2 (I know, kill me now!!) and the site won't show me a link to it no matter what I do.

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post #89 of 25251 Old 11-20-2015, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
NEW HDR SHOW ADDED TO AMAZON


Looks like amazon decided to add a show a day early. The man in the high castle is now on amazon with 10 episodes in HDR.

a little background its a sci fi show about an alternate world where the nazis actually won world war 2. A few big name networks refused the show because it was too graphic, or just flat out "too much" for a big name network to take on. i forget the exact wording. so amazon gladly picked it up. the article i read said that "amazon is banking on this being a huge hit". and from the trailer, it looks dam good!
The pilot was excellent. I'm looking forward to binge watching this soon.
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post #90 of 25251 Old 11-20-2015, 08:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Man the Amazon thing is really pissing me off. I'm actually ready to drop $30 on Smurfs 2 (I know, kill me now!!) and the site won't show me a link to it no matter what I do.

Its still not popping up in the uhd section?
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