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post #61 of 1030 Old 04-20-2017, 12:45 PM
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Will we need new receivers to use HDR10+??
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post #62 of 1030 Old 04-20-2017, 12:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by FullyArray View Post
That's what I hope will happen, but we're at the mercy of Samsung and whether or not they want to push you into buying a new TV from their latest lineup. Keeping my fingers crossed.
They easily could have withheld HDR10+ or even HLG if they wanted to, but enabled support for both.

I think that in order to garner sufficient support for this format, they'll need to enable it on as many devices as possible, not only through streaming, but also through external devices. So I'd say there's a great chance we'll get it through HDMI.
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post #63 of 1030 Old 04-20-2017, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by LanceX View Post
Will I need a new AV receiver to use HDR10+?? Mine supports hdr10
Unknown, but likely yes. Did you see the earlier conversation in the thread we had about HDMI 2.1? Here's my post: http://01900888.com/forum/465-hi...l#post52388913

It all depends. If you have a Samsung TV that supports HDR10+, then no, because it will only be internal to the TV. But if they add it to external devices sometime in the future, then your receiver would have to be HDMI 2.1 compatible to pass it. And we don't know if some current receivers could be upgraded, or a new one will be required. Some receivers have had their HDMI 2.0 ports upgraded to 2.0a. And some others are getting upgraded from 2.0a to 2.0b soon to support HLG. So there is a slight chance one could be updated to 2.1 for HDR10+ support, but do not get your hopes up until you get official word from your receiver's manufacturer.
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post #64 of 1030 Old 04-20-2017, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by FullyArray View Post
That's what I hope will happen, but we're at the mercy of Samsung and whether or not they want to push you into buying a new TV from their latest lineup. Keeping my fingers crossed.
Well "technically" each of the OneConnect type Samsung sets "could" be upgraded to HDMI 2.1 since all the brains including the HDMI chipsets are in the One Connect box. And Samsung did "say" they were going to support display "evolution" via the One Connect box for at least 5 years but we know how that went.


I imagine the discussion:


Engineering: We could easily reduce obsolescence with a small replaceable "box" that has all the TVs brains which could be swapped out by the customer when new features come around.
Marketing: Great idea engineering...that would be an outstanding selling point and an easy marketing campaign to generate...THANKS!
Accounting: Hmmm...something doesn't add up here. You guys are saying we are purposely going to reduce TV sales by re-engineering how our TVs are put together and we plan to live on the measly couple hundred dollars this "One Connect Box" thing is going to generate? Are you guys stupid? Go back to your offices and quit trying to "think outside the box"...geez!


Gee, I wonder if Samsung is going to "want to push you into buying a new TV"?


P.S. My "other" TV is a 2014 65HU8550 with an SEK-3500 evolution box which makes it "effectively" a 2015 TV for all intents and purposes (just slightly lower color gamut and brightness). I'm not expecting to see another new box ever even though Samsung could upgrade this TV to support HDR10+.

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post #65 of 1030 Old 04-20-2017, 01:32 PM
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2016 Samsung models are getting the HDR10+ update too. Well done Samsung.

Samsung TVs now have support for HDR10, HDR10+, YouTube HDR, and HLG. As close to a universal HDR TV as there is.
2017 LGs offer all of those standards plus Dolby Vision, the 2016 LGs offer all but HDR10+. So i'd say LG is the most "Universal HDR TV" manufacturer.
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post #66 of 1030 Old 04-20-2017, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Rudy1 View Post
Womp. That doesn't address why they won't even do it for streaming on the 2015 displays, but I don't really care, as I use external streaming devices. I'm fine with HDR10. This is going to take years to sort out at this rate of incompatibility and blunders. Next we have 2160p120, which will require yet another set of changes to what signals displays can accept.
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post #67 of 1030 Old 04-20-2017, 01:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mercennarius View Post
2017 LGs offer all of those standards plus Dolby Vision, the 2016 LGs offer all but HDR10+. So i'd say LG is the most "Universal HDR TV" manufacturer.
The 2016 LG TVs don't support YouTube HDR. They may be getting HLG, but they don't currently support it.

Neither the 2016 or 2017 support HDR10+.
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post #68 of 1030 Old 04-20-2017, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Lineproduct View Post
The 2016 LG TVs don't support YouTube HDR. They may be getting HLG, but they don't currently support it.

Neither the 2016 or 2017 support HDR10+.
The 2016 are getting HLG this summer according to LG. Your right about the Youtube HDR. The 2017 LGs support Technicolor HDR which from my understanding is the same thing as HDR10+.
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post #69 of 1030 Old 04-20-2017, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by bluemoon737 View Post
Well "technically" each of the OneConnect type Samsung sets "could" be upgraded to HDMI 2.1 since all the brains including the HDMI chipsets are in the One Connect box. And Samsung did "say" they were going to support display "evolution" via the One Connect box for at least 5 years but we know how that went.


I imagine the discussion:


Engineering: We could easily reduce obsolescence with a small replaceable "box" that has all the TVs brains which could be swapped out by the customer when new features come around.
Marketing: Great idea engineering...that would be an outstanding selling point and an easy marketing campaign to generate...THANKS!
Accounting: Hmmm...something doesn't add up here. You guys are saying we are purposely going to reduce TV sales by re-engineering how our TVs are put together and we plan to live on the measly couple hundred dollars this "One Connect Box" thing is going to generate? Are you guys stupid? Go back to your offices and quit trying to "think outside the box"...geez!


Gee, I wonder if Samsung is going to "want to push you into buying a new TV"?
I imagined that same discussion but why didn't they think of that before even making One Connect TVs??

Maybe profits are down which changed their minds on it. Or maybe they just realized it was a PITA to update all the firmware for the 1000 people that bought one.
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post #70 of 1030 Old 04-20-2017, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by FullyArray View Post
I imagined that same discussion but why didn't they think of that before even making One Connect TVs??

Maybe profits are down which changed their minds on it. Or maybe they just realized it was a PITA to update all the firmware for the 1000 people that bought one.

Accounting department was sleeping/hungover/sick (fill in the blank)?

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post #71 of 1030 Old 04-20-2017, 01:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bluemoon737 View Post
Well "technically" each of the OneConnect type Samsung sets "could" be upgraded to HDMI 2.1 since all the brains including the HDMI chipsets are in the One Connect box. And Samsung did "say" they were going to support display "evolution" via the One Connect box for at least 5 years but we know how that went.


I imagine the discussion:


Engineering: We could easily reduce obsolescence with a small replaceable "box" that has all the TVs brains which could be swapped out by the customer when new features come around.
Marketing: Great idea engineering...that would be an outstanding selling point and an easy marketing campaign to generate...THANKS!
Accounting: Hmmm...something doesn't add up here. You guys are saying we are purposely going to reduce TV sales by re-engineering how our TVs are put together and we plan to live on the measly couple hundred dollars this "One Connect Box" thing is going to generate? Are you guys stupid? Go back to your offices and quit trying to "think outside the box"...geez!


Gee, I wonder if Samsung is going to "want to push you into buying a new TV"?


P.S. My "other" TV is a 2014 65HU8550 with an SEK-3500 evolution box which makes it "effectively" a 2015 TV for all intents and purposes (just slightly lower color gamut and brightness). I'm not expecting to see another new box ever even though Samsung could upgrade this TV to support HDR10+.

The 2015 TVs received an upgrade from HDMI 2.0 to 2.0a, without needing a new OCB. So a new box is not necessary.
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post #72 of 1030 Old 04-20-2017, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Lineproduct View Post
The 2015 TVs received an upgrade from HDMI 2.0 to 2.0a, without needing a new OCB. So a new box is not necessary.
I suspect a 2.1 jump is going to be too high. Appears to be backwards compatible, but not forward compatible.

http://www.trustedreviews.com/news/w...pecs-explained

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post #73 of 1030 Old 04-20-2017, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Lineproduct View Post
The 2015 TVs received an upgrade from HDMI 2.0 to 2.0a, without needing a new OCB. So a new box is not necessary.
And my "2014" TV received the exact same upgrade...since the SEK-3500 is exactly the same box as the OCB on the 2015 sets...they use the exact same firmware. My 8550 will do HDR10 just like the 2015 sets (granted with a smaller color gamut and not quite as brightly).


You are missing my point. Samsung "could" build new OCBs for the older sets with the new HDMI chipsets in them and give HDR10+ to sets going back as far as 2013...but they won't. Why? Because they want you to buy a new TV vice a $300 "upgrade" box.
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post #74 of 1030 Old 04-20-2017, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by mercennarius View Post
The 2017 LGs support Technicolor HDR which from my understanding is the same thing as HDR10+.
Unfortunately, no. Technicolor HDR is yet another HDR standard and not the same as HDR10+.
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post #75 of 1030 Old 04-20-2017, 02:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ralarcon View Post
I suspect a 2.1 jump is going to be too high. Appears to be backwards compatible, but not forward compatible.

http://www.trustedreviews.com/news/w...pecs-explained

Cheers
I posted a link earlier in the thread from an official at HDMI.org which confirms that the dynamic metadata feature of HDMI 2.1 can be achieved through a firmware update, but it depends on manufacturer. The dynamic metadata feature doesn't require 48Gbps.
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post #76 of 1030 Old 04-20-2017, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Ralarcon View Post
I suspect a 2.1 jump is going to be too high.

http://www.trustedreviews.com/news/w...pecs-explained

Cheers
Agreed, full HDMI 2.1 will not happen via firmware. However, I suspect parts of the HDMI 2.1 specs (particularly in relation to HDR) "could" be made available to HDMI 2.0a(b) chipsets via firmware calling it heck...2.0c. Will that happen? Who knows...time will tell (but I ain't holding my breath! ).

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post #77 of 1030 Old 04-20-2017, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by bluemoon737 View Post
And my "2014" TV received the exact same upgrade...since the SEK-3500 is exactly the same box as the OCB on the 2015 sets...they use the exact same firmware. My 8550 will do HDR10 just like the 2015 sets (granted with a smaller color gamut and not quite as brightly).


You are missing my point. Samsung "could" build new OCBs for the older sets with the new HDMI chipsets in them and give HDR10+ to sets going back as far as 2013...but they won't. Why? Because they want you to buy a new TV vice a $300 "upgrade" box.
You have not bought a new TV since 2013. It s time for you to buy a new one ("sarcasm"). Agree

Cheers
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post #78 of 1030 Old 04-20-2017, 02:03 PM
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As someone who still prefers playback via disks, my 2015 TV still supports the current UHD Blu-ray specs. Sure, streaming might be a little bit of an issue, but oh well.
Plus standard HDR10 is miles better than anything I've watched before and after watching some stuff in DV on a different set I don't see a huge difference from dynamic metadata alone. So I'm fine for now. A few more years maybe.

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post #79 of 1030 Old 04-20-2017, 02:04 PM
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You have not bought a new TV since 2013. It s time for you to buy a new one ("sarcasm"). Agree

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post #80 of 1030 Old 04-20-2017, 02:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bluemoon737 View Post
And my "2014" TV received the exact same upgrade...since the SEK-3500 is exactly the same box as the OCB on the 2015 sets...they use the exact same firmware. My 8550 will do HDR10 just like the 2015 sets (granted with a smaller color gamut and not quite as brightly).


You are missing my point. Samsung "could" build new OCBs for the older sets with the new HDMI chipsets in them and give HDR10+ to sets going back as far as 2013...but they won't. Why? Because they want you to buy a new TV vice a $300 "upgrade" box.
If it was as simple as wanting people to buy their new TVs, then they would have withheld the format from the 2016 owners as well. The more likely scenario is that the older TVs are just not capable of supporting the format.
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post #81 of 1030 Old 04-20-2017, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by CaptinCrunch View Post
http://hometheaterhifi.com/technical...-vision-hdr10/



Dolby Vision is the GOLD standard for HDR, and is supported by LG, Sony, Visio, and Hensise, along with some form of HDR10 added to their sets.

Samsung/Paramount Studios are completely in on HDR10/10-PLUS. Samsung is the primary backer for this technology and will not be offering DV on their sets

Panasonic/Technicolor are developing there on HDR version (Technicolor-HDR)

Eventually the BDA will make a final decision on the supported HDR formats for Blu-ray and that will be adopted as the industry standard.

Blu-ray Disc Association

The aim of the BDA is to:

Develop Blu-ray Disc specifications
Ensure Blu-ray Disc products are implemented by licensees according to the intent of the specifications
Promote wide adoption of Blu-ray Disc formats
Provide useful information to those who are interested in supporting Blu-ray Disc formats
The standards have already been set. HDR10 is mandatory if the disc has HDR at all. Anything else is optional.

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post #82 of 1030 Old 04-20-2017, 02:11 PM
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If it was as simple as wanting people to buy their new TVs, then they would have withheld the format from the 2016 owners as well. The more likely scenario is that the older TVs are just not capable of supporting the format.
No, the more likely scenario is the legal department said it would be easier to avoid an uproar if we at least offered the upgrade to sets that are one year old but anything beyond that is fair game. Again, the entire brains of the TV are in the OCB (at least those with full sized OCB...not OCB minis) so it "could" be done but won't...they want your new TV money as well they should since they are a for profit outfit.
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post #83 of 1030 Old 04-20-2017, 02:14 PM
 
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No, the more likely scenario is the legal department said it would be easier to avoid an uproar if we at least offered the upgrade to sets that are one year old but anything beyond that is fair game. Again, the entire brains of the TV are in the OCB (at least those with full sized OCB...not OCB minis) so it "could" be done but won't...they want your new TV money as well they should since they are a for profit outfit.
They're not even enabling HDR10+ through streaming for the older TVs. That doesn't require an upgrade to the OCB or the the HDMI ports. So that should tell you that the TV lacks the capability.
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post #84 of 1030 Old 04-20-2017, 02:19 PM
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They're not even enabling HDR10+ through streaming for the older TVs. That doesn't require an upgrade to the OCB or the the HDMI ports. So that should tell you that the TV lacks the capability.
No, the TV is the OCB. The rest is just a panel and a couple small speakers. The OCB chips in the 2015 sets probably can't interpret the data being fed and they just aren't going to offer a new OCB that does. Similar to how you can't process HLG for YouTube HDR with a 2015 set. The OCB doesn't know what the data being fed is. They could easily release an OCB with a chipset and software that can read both HLG and HDR10+ and process that information for the panel to display but they just aren't. I think they are going to abandon the OCB upgrade idea entirely. After all none of the 2015 TVs have the UltraHD Premium label which is just saying that the TV passed a set of standard tests. They likely don't want to bother releasing updates for panels that don't meet the current minimum standards.
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post #85 of 1030 Old 04-20-2017, 02:47 PM
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I understand the want/need to create something "proprietary" to differentiate yourself from your competition. But this isn't doing anybody any good.

If the objective is to sell more TV's, more AVR's, more Bluray/4K/UHD discs and everything else along the chain - - then you're better off with open standards that evolve where everyone can jump on board and content is easily created and reasonably priced & distributed.

How about the delivery mechanism? Streaming is where it's at IF (and a big if) you have the bandwidth and technology to economically distribute content to the masses. That's why I'm a big fan of DD+ for Dolby Atmos. But alas, very little Dolby Atmos content available that way today.

Confusing buyers with options without standards doesn't get people excited - - it just prolongs buying decisions and buyer's remorse if a new fangled technology was just created and you're SOL because you bought your TV two years ago.

I guess I'm old school on selling. Make it easy for the customer to be wowed and buy now. Keep the technology transparent to them - - as much as possible. Make it easy to connect various devices (no thanks to HDCP) and focus on content and selling improvements on YOUR implementation of current technology.

When's HDR 20+ coming out?
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post #86 of 1030 Old 04-20-2017, 02:50 PM
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What Rico just said.

Frankly, I'm over the competing metadata systems. Why? Because as home televisions approach the capabilities of the professional displays dynamic metadata becomes relatively unimportant. Tone mapping is primarily needed for lower performance displays. If you buy a television that has a lower capability, you're not getting reference reproduction so it becomes subjective anyway what kind of tone mapping you prefer. One person will say DV is best, another may say Technicolor is best, and another may say HDR10000+++ASuperUltra is best, while one pariah may prefer the proprietary processing that is built into their specific model of television and firmware… and they could all be right from their own subjective opinion about image and color quality. It sucks for content producers who are expected to optimize their releases for one or all formats (none of which really deliver everything they promise) and it sucks for consumers because they have to sort through it all in the end. The whole thing is a very unfortunate battle for market share, and it's going to drive the video market toward the ridiculousness that exists in audio where rather than looking for an accurate (flat) reproduction we are going to be inundated with arguments about which reproduction is the most "lifelike", "vibrant", "open" and so on.
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post #87 of 1030 Old 04-20-2017, 02:56 PM
 
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I understand the want/need to create something "proprietary" to differentiate yourself from your competition. But this isn't doing anybody any good.

If the objective is to sell more TV's, more AVR's, more Bluray/4K/UHD discs and everything else along the chain - - then you're better off with open standards that evolve where everyone can jump on board and content is easily created and reasonably priced & distributed.
Then you should be thrilled with HDR10+, as it's an open standard, and you should be fundamentally opposed to Dolby Vision, which is not.

Sounds like a great day for you!
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post #88 of 1030 Old 04-20-2017, 03:25 PM
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I believe if Dolby can get at least two-thirds of the world's cinemas to upgrade to Dolby Vision, they may be able to force the BDA to make DV mandatory along with HDR10. As little as each individual DV license may cost a manufacturer, we need to keep in mind that the profit margins for TVs sold in the US, Canada, the UK and Europe are shrinking and continue to do so...even for OLEDs. Right now, and especially with a software solution, Dolby Vision offers manufacturers a "pret-a-porter" formula for their devices...but at a cost. On the other hand, the HDR10 option requires that each manufacturer have in-house talent to develop and implement their own interpretation of HDR10, and some may not want (or may not have the resources) to deal with that.

In the end, I think each of the two competing standards will dominate in the arena (cinemas versus displays) where the manufacturers can get the most bang for their buck. Before we bury either standard, let's keep in mind that even after all these years some manufacturers still refuse to pay the licensing fees to enable support for certain audio formats on their devices. If this was about what's best for the consumer, things would be radically different.

Definition of "Stupid": Knowing the truth, seeing the truth, but still believing the lies.
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post #89 of 1030 Old 04-20-2017, 04:49 PM
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what exactly is dynamic metadata changing on the TV? is it simply modifying the backlight brightness on a scene to scene or frame to frame basis, or is it also modifying other settings?
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post #90 of 1030 Old 04-20-2017, 05:24 PM
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Ok, so my Samsung is a 2015 model, it was sold in 2016 though as well.. Samsung promised it was future proof with the detachable 4 HDMI ports.. Any word on whether or not they will be keeping their word and making 2.1 upgrades available for all SUHD sets? I am not getting sucked into this buy a new tv every 2-3 years crap, I have UHD, I have 4K, and now they are going to change it again?? They do not broadcast 4K yet, and there is a chance my 4K set is out of date..
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