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post #1 of 45 Old 10-24-2018, 11:46 PM - Thread Starter
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What's your take on HDR so far?

HDR has been out for a couple of years now in the home theater format. I haven't seen a lot of movies and tv shows that utilize the format but I've seen enough to start to make some determinations.

I've been underwhelmed at best. There has been one single source I have seen that I thought used HDR really well. MacGillivray Freeman's "Brush with Genius". The HDR in this movie seemed to make the paintings glow with an other-worldly light. Not the most accurate representation but I think it captured the movie makers intent. Animated movies do the next best job at using HDR. Live action movies/tv shows are bleh! Most movies and especially tv shows seem to display HDR as something that should be thrown in for any light source that is over a certain brightness level. Street lights in the dark, specular highlights, lens flare etc. Most movies use the same types of scenes over and over. I constantly feel like HDR sources look fake and plasticky to me over non HDR sources. I have a feeling some of this is because HDR is still new and cinematographers/mastering engineers haven't quite figured it out yet. It almost seems as if it is a gimmick. Which makes sense considering it is a new tool that studios are pushing as the next big thing. I hope it starts to be used to enhance movies and not detract from them. I think the potential is there and needs to be used better.
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post #2 of 45 Old 10-25-2018, 12:33 AM
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Thumbs up These links will help you decide if 4K Blu-rays are worth it.

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post #3 of 45 Old 10-25-2018, 04:10 AM
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Well I have seen some underwhelming HDR, mostly streaming Netflix HDR but HDR as a whole is just incredible. The UHD John Wick 2 is absolutely stunning HDR. There are many, many others. HDR is the greatest TV improvement since color. 4k is ah whatever unless you have an 85 inch TV but HDR is impact no matter what size TV you have as long as it has proper contrast and brightness.

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post #4 of 45 Old 10-25-2018, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Hetfieldjames View Post
Well I have seen some underwhelming HDR, mostly streaming Netflix HDR but HDR as a whole is just incredible. The UHD John Wick 2 is absolutely stunning HDR. There are many, many others. HDR is the greatest TV improvement since color. 4k is ah whatever unless you have an 85 inch TV but HDR is impact no matter what size TV you have as long as it has proper contrast and brightness.

Agreed on all counts, I think it's fantastic. Now, sometimes to me there isn't much "there" there, like something like the OA or Deathnote on Netflix...I wouldn't have recognized it as HDR if not told. But to me it goes from not necessarily noticeable to great...I've never thought it made the picture worse.


I also can't legit say I can see a difference with 1080p vs 4k nine feet from a 65". Sometimes I think I do, and then I see something really nice in HD, and realize it's just the content.
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post #5 of 45 Old 10-25-2018, 03:10 PM
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Agreed on all counts, I think it's fantastic. Now, sometimes to me there isn't much "there" there, like something like the OA or Deathnote on Netflix...I wouldn't have recognized it as HDR if not told. But to me it goes from not necessarily noticeable to great...I've never thought it made the picture worse.


I also can't legit say I can see a difference with 1080p vs 4k nine feet from a 65". Sometimes I think I do, and then I see something really nice in HD, and realize it's just the content.
Have you seen the HDR on Jack Ryan on Amazon? Oh my God absolutely game changing amazing.

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post #6 of 45 Old 10-26-2018, 02:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks! Some really good reviews here.
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post #7 of 45 Old 10-27-2018, 03:31 AM
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It really depends on the movie. When the source isn't grainy and clean - like I just saw Only the Brave - it really is spectacular. But when it's a very grainy source it's much harder for it to stand out. I think it's because grainy sources look best with low APL. When you boost that on a self em-missive display for daylight viewing - things look really bad.

HDR is nice, but it's not a big step up like good 3D or real OLED black has been for me.
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post #8 of 45 Old 10-27-2018, 04:14 AM
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HDR is really nice, but WCG is even more important to me. I can't go back to orange reds /BT.709/, after seeing those crimson reds /BT.2020/.

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post #9 of 45 Old 10-27-2018, 05:43 AM
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Animated movies do the next best job at using HDR.
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post #10 of 45 Old 10-30-2018, 05:07 PM
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I think it’s been poorly implemented, hard to execute properly, and very uneven across and within the various disc and streaming platforms. I’m surprised at how difficult and variable it is and feel like it screwed up 4K and use of a wide color gamut.
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post #11 of 45 Old 10-30-2018, 07:07 PM
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I use a projector so 4K is important while HDR had to be calibrated for my setup. HDR implementation is all over the place. Some movies just seem darker overall while a few seem to have nailed it. There seems to be better implementation of HDR with discs that use 4K intermediates ( there are exceptions) , not exactly sure why, possibly they just take a bit more care overall.

A reference for me is Planet Earth II which has simply the best resolution, colour and HDR implementation I have seen so far. Problem is that it sets such a high standard that so many other discs look quite sad in comparison
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post #12 of 45 Old 10-30-2018, 07:14 PM
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I use a projector so 4K is important while HDR had to be calibrated for my setup. HDR implementation is all over the place. Some movies just seem darker overall while a few seem to have nailed it. There seems to be better implementation of HDR with discs that use 4K intermediates ( there are exceptions) , not exactly sure why, possibly they just take a bit more care overall.

A reference for me is Planet Earth II which has simply the best resolution, colour and HDR implementation I have seen so far. Problem is that it sets such a high standard that so many other discs look quite sad in comparison
Have you seen Deepwater Horizon? The HDR is simply insane and I believe that was 2k upscaled. Absolutely stunning picture. You did say there are exceptions so I thought I'd point just one out.

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post #13 of 45 Old 10-30-2018, 07:30 PM
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Until HDMI 2.1 gets here to give out at least 20Mbps, we really can't get good color gamut and HDR @4K

So I'm waiting.

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post #14 of 45 Old 10-31-2018, 08:25 AM
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Until HDMI 2.1 gets here to give out at least 20Mbps, we really can't get good color gamut and HDR @4K

So I'm waiting.
This is simply not true. First off, I think you mean Gbps, not Mbps.

Most movies are still at 24 FPS. 4K at 24 FPS does not need that kind of bandwidth. 8.3 million pixels per frame, 36 bits per pixel in 12 bit 4-4-4, and 24 FPS is just over 7 Gigabits per second of picture data. Add in some overhead, the audio stream and HDR metadata, and it still won't double. 16 Gbps is more than enough. Most 4K stuff is 4-2-2 which cuts that quite a bit. HDR and WCG do not really need any more bits at the HDMI port. It only changes how those bits are used. The biggest extra over the raw video data is probably a full True HD Dolby Atmos audio stream which could top 36 Mbps, but still a tiny portion of that payload. When compressed for storage on a disk, or to be streamed, then we are increasing the data rate needed. Especially with the dual stream versions where the enhancement layer can add 25% to the main layer. This is done to make the same stream compatible with older decoders that just ignore the second layer. The profile used on most Blu Ray disks is a single stream HDR-10 stream with fixed metadata. The player must down convert it to Rec 709 if a non HDR-10 display is connected. Dolby Vision adds the enhancement stream on top of it, but the base uses the same HDR-10 package. Dolby Vision works just fine over an HDMI 1.4 link.

If you are pushing 4K at 48 or 60 FPS, then the data rate to the display climbs, but then they go to 4-2-2 or even 4-2-0 or 4-1-1 to reduce the bit rate needed.
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post #15 of 45 Old 10-31-2018, 08:38 AM
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HDR has been out for a couple of years now in the home theater format.
HDR has been out more than a couple of years. Sony had HDR on their XBR HX 929 series back in 2012.
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post #16 of 45 Old 10-31-2018, 10:11 AM
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This is simply not true. First off, I think you mean Gbps, not Mbps.

Most movies are still at 24 FPS. 4K at 24 FPS does not need that kind of bandwidth. 8.3 million pixels per frame, 36 bits per pixel in 12 bit 4-4-4, and 24 FPS is just over 7 Gigabits per second of picture data. Add in some overhead, the audio stream and HDR metadata, and it still won't double. 16 Gbps is more than enough. Most 4K stuff is 4-2-2 which cuts that quite a bit. HDR and WCG do not really need any more bits at the HDMI port. It only changes how those bits are used. The biggest extra over the raw video data is probably a full True HD Dolby Atmos audio stream which could top 36 Mbps, but still a tiny portion of that payload. When compressed for storage on a disk, or to be streamed, then we are increasing the data rate needed. Especially with the dual stream versions where the enhancement layer can add 25% to the main layer. This is done to make the same stream compatible with older decoders that just ignore the second layer. The profile used on most Blu Ray disks is a single stream HDR-10 stream with fixed metadata. The player must down convert it to Rec 709 if a non HDR-10 display is connected. Dolby Vision adds the enhancement stream on top of it, but the base uses the same HDR-10 package. Dolby Vision works just fine over an HDMI 1.4 link.

If you are pushing 4K at 48 or 60 FPS, then the data rate to the display climbs, but then they go to 4-2-2 or even 4-2-0 or 4-1-1 to reduce the bit rate needed.
Call me greedy but I want 4K 60fps 4-4-4, dynamic HDR which allows for more fine grain color gains between frames, and Rec 2020 (I was hoping Rec 2100 but oh well) as well as VRR

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post #17 of 45 Old 10-31-2018, 07:14 PM
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My 10 year-old HDTV just died so I'm looking for something in the $1500 range but I am really confused by these new alphabet soup features, so I am really catching up right now.


Is HDR a competitor to Dolby Vision? How about QLED (which I saw at Sams Club and liked)? Which do I need?
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post #18 of 45 Old 10-31-2018, 08:07 PM
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My 10 year-old HDTV just died so I'm looking for something in the $1500 range but I am really confused by these new alphabet soup features, so I am really catching up right now.


Is HDR a competitor to Dolby Vision? How about QLED (which I saw at Sams Club and liked)? Which do I need?
You can get a 65 900F close to that. Vizio P65-F1 is under that. Those are the two I'd be looking at in that price range.

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post #19 of 45 Old 10-31-2018, 09:51 PM
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You can get a 65 900F close to that. Vizio P65-F1 is under that. Those are the two I'd be looking at in that price range.
I couldn't find the exact Viz model you referenced, but a close P-model on Amazon looked like $1700 and for the Sony 900F it was $1800.


The Samsung QLED 65 is available direct from Samsung, and at Amazon and Sams Club for $1300.
http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-QN65Q...ung+65+qled+4k


If I'm off on the models you referenced or pricing please feel free to update or correct me.
+++


I'd like to get into a 70-75" screen but the Samsung 65 QLED looked really nice on display at Sams Club. Is a "regular" UHD HDR a worthwhile purchase, or is the smaller yet better QLED a better choice in that same $1500 price range?
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post #20 of 45 Old 10-31-2018, 09:55 PM
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Good overall information can be found here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wvu80 View Post
My 10 year-old HDTV just died so I'm looking for something in the $1500 range but I am really confused by these new alphabet soup features, so I am really catching up right now.


Is HDR a competitor to Dolby Vision? How about QLED (which I saw at Sams Club and liked)? Which do I need?
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post #21 of 45 Old 11-01-2018, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by wvu80 View Post
I couldn't find the exact Viz model you referenced, but a close P-model on Amazon looked like $1700 and for the Sony 900F it was $1800.


The Samsung QLED 65 is available direct from Samsung, and at Amazon and Sams Club for $1300.
http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-QN65Q...ung+65+qled+4k


If I'm off on the models you referenced or pricing please feel free to update or correct me.
+++


I'd like to get into a 70-75" screen but the Samsung 65 QLED looked really nice on display at Sams Club. Is a "regular" UHD HDR a worthwhile purchase, or is the smaller yet better QLED a better choice in that same $1500 price range?
Are you in Canada? The P65-F1 is 1,100 bucks?

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post #22 of 45 Old 11-01-2018, 02:38 AM
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I think HDR is one of those things that when done well has the potential to make a dramatic difference, but can also be “meh, is that all?” Just like Atmos done well is amazing, not so much if it is Disney.

The best standard Blu Rays look and sound better than some 4K disks with HDR and Atmos. Wouldn’t it be great if the studios always took full advantage of the technologies available on each format?

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post #23 of 45 Old 11-01-2018, 06:48 AM
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My take on HDR:

HDR shines when applied to movies that are shot with modern, state-of-the-art digital cameras (such as ARRI Alexa) as the digital RAW files can handle dynamic range much better than, say, 35mm film. HDR is putting a strain on the source material and if the material is not meant for being pushed in terms of dynamic range, the results can be less than ideal. One of my favorite examples would be John Wick 2 - the entire movie has been shot with Arri Alexa + Arri Alexa XT Plus and the end result in HDR looks amazing in my opinion (though if I wanted to be nit-picky: the intermediate is "just" 2K). On the contrary, Harry Potter was shot on 35mm and with HDR activated on the 4K Bluray release, the end result is rather grainy and noisy and looks rather overblown (though on a positive note: black levels have been fixed). So what I do before I go out and purchase a movie in (4K) HDR, I research the movie first on the internet as there are some websites dedicated to inform on what material the movie was shot and if it has a 2K oder 4K intermediate. If I see that the movie was mostly shot with, say, an ARRI Alexa camera, I'm more inclined to get the 4K Bluray release.

Buying a TV for watching HDR content is another story ... it is worth knowing that movies are mastered at different Nits levels. So some movies will be mastered at 1000 Nits and your Sony A1 OLED TV might be best suited for displaying those movies in HDR... while other movies are mastered at 4000 Nits and then your Panasonic TV might be better suited for the job. This doesn't solely come down to what the TV can actually achieve in terms of maximum brightness but also at how the TV handles tone-mapping. Of course, high maximum brightness is probably the most important factor when it comes to HDR, but since none of the existing TV (to date) can display 4000 or 10000 Nits, tonemapping is just as important.

There are a lot of factors that come into play when displaying HDR content, and we haven't even mentioned the competing HDR standards yet or that OLED may not be able to get as bright as LED TVs but might just be the better TVs when it comes to overall contrast... currently I think the biggest issue with HDR is that it demands a lot of research, but once one has gone through the hurdle of getting all the necessary information, HDR becomes more enjoyable.
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post #24 of 45 Old 11-01-2018, 10:10 AM
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Are you in Canada? The P65-F1 is 1,100 bucks?
I'm way further out from civilization than Canada, I'm from West Virginia.
+++


What do you think of the Vizio 75" E Series? It gets rave reviews for value from rtings.com but most real-people reviews knock it for reliability, "goes black after two years, Vizio won't stand behind it..."


http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/be...ice/under-1500


http://www.amazon.com/VIZIO-Class-S...75+4k+smart+tv


http://www.walmart.com/ip/SAMSUNG-7...odel/768706247


Any comments on these models ^^^ ?
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post #25 of 45 Old 11-01-2018, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by wvu80 View Post
I couldn't find the exact Viz model you referenced, but a close P-model on Amazon looked like $1700 and for the Sony 900F it was $1800.


The Samsung QLED 65 is available direct from Samsung, and at Amazon and Sams Club for $1300.
http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-QN65Q...ung+65+qled+4k


If I'm off on the models you referenced or pricing please feel free to update or correct me.
+++


I'd like to get into a 70-75" screen but the Samsung 65 QLED looked really nice on display at Sams Club. Is a "regular" UHD HDR a worthwhile purchase, or is the smaller yet better QLED a better choice in that same $1500 price range?
You might as well wait a couple of weeks for Holiday pricing. I read a rumor about the P quantum being discounted around $800 from retail. And I'm sure the Sony, Vizio and other UHD TVs will be discounted as well.
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post #26 of 45 Old 11-01-2018, 04:22 PM
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I'm way further out from civilization than Canada, I'm from West Virginia.
+++


What do you think of the Vizio 75" E Series? It gets rave reviews for value from rtings.com but most real-people reviews knock it for reliability, "goes black after two years, Vizio won't stand behind it..."


http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/be...ice/under-1500


http://www.amazon.com/VIZIO-Class-S...75+4k+smart+tv


http://www.walmart.com/ip/SAMSUNG-7...odel/768706247


Any comments on these models ^^^ ?




http://www.bestbuy.com/site/vizio-6...?skuId=6213228

This is the Vizio I'm talking about. In a few weeks when black Friday sales hit I bet its 999.99 or at least 1,099.
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post #27 of 45 Old 11-01-2018, 07:58 PM
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You might as well wait a couple of weeks for Holiday pricing. I read a rumor about the P quantum being discounted around $800 from retail. And I'm sure the Sony, Vizio and other UHD TVs will be discounted as well.
I'm sure you're right, and I can wait a couple of weeks.

What is different these days is "Black Friday" is no longer the day after Thanksgiving. To get your money before the other guys do it's now "Black Friday WEEK" and 'Black Friday MONTH."

I'm not sure when to pull the trigger. I guess I need to make my purchase decision and stick with it, then jump when the price looks right.
+++

I will be sitting about 11 feet away. Would you guys recommend I go for quality PQ in a TV at 65" or go for Quantity at 70 or 75"? It costs hundreds more just to get those extra 5 inches here, 10 inches there in screen size.

What I WANT is a 75, Samsung QLED, at $1500 (instead of $2K). I just don't want to bust the budget.
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post #28 of 45 Old 11-02-2018, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Hetfieldjames View Post
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/vizio-6...?skuId=6213228

This is the Vizio I'm talking about. In a few weeks when black Friday sales hit I bet its 999.99 or at least 1,099.
It was already $1099 recently. I opted for the TCL over the Vizio because all he Vizios I looked at showed banding in content where you should not be seeing it. Otherwise ai would have picked up the Vizio P quantum.

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post #29 of 45 Old 11-02-2018, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by wvu80 View Post
I'm sure you're right, and I can wait a couple of weeks.

What is different these days is "Black Friday" is no longer the day after Thanksgiving. To get your money before the other guys do it's now "Black Friday WEEK" and 'Black Friday MONTH."

I'm not sure when to pull the trigger. I guess I need to make my purchase decision and stick with it, then jump when the price looks right.
+++

I will be sitting about 11 feet away. Would you guys recommend I go for quality PQ in a TV at 65" or go for Quantity at 70 or 75"? It costs hundreds more just to get those extra 5 inches here, 10 inches there in screen size.

What I WANT is a 75, Samsung QLED, at $1500 (instead of $2K). I just don't want to bust the budget.
I know at Best Buy, since I'm a member of thier Elite Plus, I get access to the Black Friday sales, days before Black Friday. That is how I got my Sony UHD TV in 2015. As well as a big discount on a. Sony Speaker Bar back then. But I didn't wait this year since I had a birthday discount and used it on the 65" TCL 6 Series and got it for 13% off the retail price.

Although I'm hoping to get a Sony Atmos speaker bar to replace my 2015 Sony speaker bar. Since at this point it seems like I will Never reinstall my SVS 9.1 speaker system in the room with my Sony? I mainly use a 5.1.2 set up with the TCL. And don't need the 9.1 system in the room with the Sony taking up so much space. the speakers take up so much space. I only wish I could easily sell them since they cost me so much over a decade ago.

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post #30 of 45 Old 11-02-2018, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
It was already $1099 recently. I opted for the TCL over the Vizio because all he Vizios I looked at showed banding in content where you should not be seeing it. Otherwise ai would have picked up the Vizio P quantum.

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It's all about choice. I personally would go Vizio over TCL but that why we are all consumers. We all make different choices for different reasons. I have the 900E but 55 inch. I really want a 65 inch and would like to get the P65-F1. I was told just a hair under the 900E by someone that reviews TV's for a living. The 10 inches will more than make up for the hair difference.

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