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post #1 of 32 Old 12-17-2018, 04:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Pioneer Elite 4 ohm speakers, Atmos & wisdom?

I'm quite interested in purchasing the whole Pioneer Elite speaker set for my surround sound setup (5.1.4) and taking the Atmos plunge... In my reading I discovered that these speakers are 4ohm/140watt rated speakers...

I already have a Yamaha RX-V583BL receiver that is Atmos-ready at least for the front right/left speakers (5.1.2) which is nice, but this receiver is only rated for 8/6ohm speakers. It lists its rated output power as 115W @ 8 ohms... Dynamic power is listed as 120W@8ohm/140W@6ohm/170W@4ohm/190W@2ohm...

How big of a deal would this be? Would I be gimping these speakers by trying to run them with an underpowered receiver? Or would I be overworking the receiver by running these speakers?

If so, anyone have alternate recommendations for a receiver that is a good match to this setup?
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post #2 of 32 Old 12-17-2018, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Joar_Lightfist View Post
I'm quite interested in purchasing the whole Pioneer Elite speaker set for my surround sound setup (5.1.4) and taking the Atmos plunge... In my reading I discovered that these speakers are 4ohm/140watt rated speakers...



I already have a Yamaha RX-V583BL receiver that is Atmos-ready at least for the front right/left speakers (5.1.2) which is nice, but this receiver is only rated for 8/6ohm speakers. It lists its rated output power as 115W @ 8 ohms... Dynamic power is listed as 120W@8ohm/140W@6ohm/170W@4ohm/190W@2ohm...



How big of a deal would this be? Would I be gimping these speakers by trying to run them with an underpowered receiver? Or would I be overworking the receiver by running these speakers?



If so, anyone have alternate recommendations for a receiver that is a good match to this setup?

There’s no need to match wattage between receivers and speakers. In case you didn’t know, the difference between 100 watts and 200 watts is a mere 3 dB. Basically inaudible.

There’s been a lot of ohm questions in the forum lately. No need to switch your receiver or 6 or 4 ohm, leave it at the default 8 ohm setting. And generally it won’t damage your receiver by running 4 ohm speakers on them. At most you’ll get a warm top plate.

If you aren’t dead set on those speakers, I have some recommendations that are IMO better. But it could be a case of availability. Where are you located?
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post #3 of 32 Old 12-17-2018, 10:12 PM - Thread Starter
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If you aren’t dead set on those speakers, I have some recommendations that are IMO better. But it could be a case of availability. Where are you located?
Thanks, recommend away!!

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post #4 of 32 Old 12-17-2018, 10:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Oh yeah... I'm in US.

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post #5 of 32 Old 12-17-2018, 11:30 PM
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Thanks, recommend away!!

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Okay so I’m guessing your budget is somewhere near $2500 since the price of the towers is $500 a piece.

If it’s okay with you, I’d actually recommend you get a really solid 5.1 system and then expand to 5.1.4 when you get more funds. I also want to discourage you from upfiring atmos speakers. They are hit and miss, most being miss, and in ceilings are the way to go, if at all possible. If you can’t go in ceiling, the next best is a high wall mount facing down. Check out SVS Elevation Prime speakers.

Anyways:

I would start with a decent subwoofer. HSU’s VTF-3 is $800. This will be the key to your system. A good sub defines and sets the bar for your whole system. This is where you want to build around. And HSU means business when they make their subwoofers. IMO they have the best price to performance ratio of any brand.

Next, the LCR. You have roughly $1700 left. Most of that should go to the LCR, especially the center since it does almost all of the work in a movie. Dialogue, Dialogue, Dialogue. You don’t need to go all out on the surrounds because they do a measly 10% of total output during a movie.

Emotiva T2’s (L/R) + C2 (Center) + B1’s (Surrounds). $1650.

Chane A5.4’s (L/R) + A2.4 (Center) + A2.4’s (Surrounds). $1260

Ascend CMT340’s w/ pedestal stand (L/R) + CMT340 (Center) + CMT340’s (Surround). $1340.

The Chane setup and Ascend setup both leave extra cash, so you could indeed get your atmos speakers if so. The Emotiva setup, if you instead get the T1’s and C1, you will have room for atmos also.

I placed those in order of my personal preference. Don’t be afraid to ask questions about them, or if you have any preference or suggestions that you would like me to comment on, Id be more than happy to help.
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post #6 of 32 Old 12-18-2018, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Russdawg1 View Post
Okay so I’m guessing your budget is somewhere near $2500 since the price of the towers is $500 a piece.

If it’s okay with you, I’d actually recommend you get a really solid 5.1 system and then expand to 5.1.4 when you get more funds. I also want to discourage you from upfiring atmos speakers. They are hit and miss, most being miss, and in ceilings are the way to go, if at all possible. If you can’t go in ceiling, the next best is a high wall mount facing down. Check out SVS Elevation Prime speakers.

Anyways:

I would start with a decent subwoofer. HSU’s VTF-3 is $800. This will be the key to your system. A good sub defines and sets the bar for your whole system. This is where you want to build around. And HSU means business when they make their subwoofers. IMO they have the best price to performance ratio of any brand.

Next, the LCR. You have roughly $1700 left. Most of that should go to the LCR, especially the center since it does almost all of the work in a movie. Dialogue, Dialogue, Dialogue. You don’t need to go all out on the surrounds because they do a measly 10% of total output during a movie.

Emotiva T2’s (L/R) + C2 (Center) + B1’s (Surrounds). $1650.

Chane A5.4’s (L/R) + A2.4 (Center) + A2.4’s (Surrounds). $1260

Ascend CMT340’s w/ pedestal stand (L/R) + CMT340 (Center) + CMT340’s (Surround). $1340.

The Chane setup and Ascend setup both leave extra cash, so you could indeed get your atmos speakers if so. The Emotiva setup, if you instead get the T1’s and C1, you will have room for atmos also.

I placed those in order of my personal preference. Don’t be afraid to ask questions about them, or if you have any preference or suggestions that you would like me to comment on, Id be more than happy to help.
Thanks for the advice! I really appreciate it.
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post #7 of 32 Old 12-18-2018, 11:57 AM
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If you're not dead set on the Pioneer's, you could do much better for money. Pioneer centers are not the greatest performers.

What is your budget?

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post #8 of 32 Old 12-18-2018, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
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My budget is around $1,500 for speakers. I'm not dead set on the pioneers. They just received glowing reviews from Cnet and were designed by Andrew Jones who used to be with KEF I hear. And they are Atmos ready which sounds fun to try.

I'm a neophyte though so go ahead and teach me.

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post #9 of 32 Old 12-18-2018, 01:53 PM
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If you're not dead set on the Pioneer's, you could do much better for money. Pioneer centers are not the greatest performers.

What is your budget?
The Elite speaker line has received nothing but positive reviews. The Elite center is a 3 way concentric design like Kef or the Unifi line.

That setup is likely to be as good as anything else in the same price range, especially if they're on sale.

For the OP, the built in up firing atmos enabled speakers my not work that well, certainly not as good as in/on ceiling or even front/rear height placement.

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post #10 of 32 Old 12-18-2018, 07:44 PM
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My budget is around $1,500 for speakers. I'm not dead set on the pioneers. They just received glowing reviews from Cnet and were designed by Andrew Jones who used to be with KEF I hear. And they are Atmos ready which sounds fun to try. I'm a neophyte though so go ahead and teach me.
CNET like Wirecutter and other gadget-geek websites, is very hit-or-miss with speaker reviews. A few years ago they were raving about Andrew Jones' bargain-basement Pioneer speakers, which resulted in droves of newbies snapping them up...and then coming to AVS to share their woes about muddy dialogue and a general sense of listening to speakers playing from inside a paper bag. I agree with post # 5 though, I'd happily take speakers from Emotiva, Chane, or Ascend over anything by AJ.

With a $1500 budget I would leave Atmos aside for now, and maybe focus on the best possible 3.1 or 5.1 you can afford right now. A couple of basic questions:

1. How big is your space? By space I mean ALL CONTIGUOUS space, not just the actual listening area. This will determine how much subwooferage you need.

2. How far away from the speakers will you be sitting, and how loud do you typically listen?

3. % of HT/TV/gaming usage vs music usage?

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #11 of 32 Old 12-18-2018, 09:42 PM - Thread Starter
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1. How big is your space? By space I mean ALL CONTIGUOUS space, not just the actual listening area. This will determine how much subwooferage you need.

2. How far away from the speakers will you be sitting, and how loud do you typically listen?

3. % of HT/TV/gaming usage vs music usage?
Space is 13' x 28' with large dining room open right next to it. Dining room is 13' x 15' with an 8' opening between. 9' ceilings. Plaster walls and ceiling.

Listening 13-14' away from front speakers. Pretty loud...

Probably 80% HT/TV/gaming vs 20% music.

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post #12 of 32 Old 12-18-2018, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joar_Lightfist View Post
Space is 13' x 28' with large dining room open right next to it. Dining room is 13' x 15' with an 8' opening between. 9' ceilings. Plaster walls and ceiling.

Listening 13-14' away from front speakers. Pretty loud...

Probably 80% HT/TV/gaming vs 20% music.

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I’m actually going to recommend Klipsch in this situation. Any way you can move your seating position up? That’s a really rough spot to be in. You will get a lot of distortion both through the speaker and amp trying to get “loud” SPL’s 14 feet away.

Check out the Klipsch RP260F or the RP6000F I believe is the newest equivalent. Look for efficient speakers in your situation, this will be a tough area to cover.
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post #13 of 32 Old 12-18-2018, 09:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes. We can move the seating a little closer but not a lot. Probably 12' is as close as we can get with furniture layout.

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post #14 of 32 Old 12-19-2018, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Joar_Lightfist View Post
Space is 13' x 28' with large dining room open right next to it. Dining room is 13' x 15' with an 8' opening between. 9' ceilings. Plaster walls and ceiling.

Listening 13-14' away from front speakers. Pretty loud...

Probably 80% HT/TV/gaming vs 20% music.
I'd go with 3 x Ascend 340SE or Chane A2.4 up front.
Or, if you need higher WAF and are ok with a slight brightness risk, you could do 2 x Klipsch RP-250F + 1 x RP-250C for $900 from Amazon.

If your $1500 includes the sub then I'd get at least one of these:
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-2mk5.html

Although with your space, I'd prefer to go with the next model up:
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-3mk5HP.html

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #15 of 32 Old 12-19-2018, 09:42 AM
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CNET like Wirecutter and other gadget-geek websites, is very hit-or-miss with speaker reviews. A few years ago they were raving about Andrew Jones' bargain-basement Pioneer speakers, which resulted in droves of newbies snapping them up...and then coming to AVS to share their woes about muddy dialogue and a general sense of listening to speakers playing from inside a paper bag. I agree with post # 5 though, I'd happily take speakers from Emotiva, Chane, or Ascend over anything by AJ.



With a $1500 budget I would leave Atmos aside for now, and maybe focus on the best possible 3.1 or 5.1 you can afford right now. A couple of basic questions:



1. How big is your space? By space I mean ALL CONTIGUOUS space, not just the actual listening area. This will determine how much subwooferage you need.



2. How far away from the speakers will you be sitting, and how loud do you typically listen?



3. % of HT/TV/gaming usage vs music usage?


To be fair those Pioneers were very successful. It was one of the first entry level speakers that was widely available and actually had some serious thought go into it. Yeah they are certainly more laid back, likely to appeal to a wider range of people, but they are a good entry point into good sound.

The center isn’t the greatest for sure, but it’s likely a lot better than no speakers or any of the HTIB/sound bars people used before.

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post #16 of 32 Old 01-01-2019, 07:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks to all who offered advice! As recommended by a number of you, I purchased the HSU Research subwoofer (VTF-3MK5). For the other speakers though I went ahead with the Pioneer Elite LCR & SL/SR (1 SP-EC73 & 4 SP-EBS73's). The Pioneers seemed to hit the size/performance sweet spot for me. Just as an idea, my wife thinks the Elite bookshelf speakers are huge... Wait 'till she sees the subwoofer!

The subwoofer hasn't arrived yet so I can't report on it, but I updated my receiver's firmware, changed the speaker impedence setting from 8-ohm to 6-ohm and added the front presence speakers to the configuration. So far the center speaker delivers awesome clear dialogue at any volume and the left and right speakers are surprisingly bass-ey and put out a delightful, robust sound to my untrained ear. I need to run the auto calibration again though once all is the speakers are installed. As soon as the subwoofer gets here I'll update this report.

I'll post up some photos later. I had to do some serious drilling to get my speaker wires and HDMI run, but I'm very happy with the result!

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post #17 of 32 Old 01-04-2019, 07:58 AM - Thread Starter
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The HSU sub arrived yesterday and I got it set up... It's impressive!

I'm currently using a 3.1.2 configuration since I don't have the furniture yet for my ultimate layout that will include the rear speakers. I'll add them in later. For now I ran the auto configuration and I'm learning how this new sub works.

Had a lot of fun listening to the opening scene of Guardians of the Galaxy 2 where they fight the space octopus while Groot is dancing around to the music... More to come.
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post #18 of 32 Old 01-11-2019, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joar_Lightfist View Post
Thanks to all who offered advice! As recommended by a number of you, I purchased the HSU Research subwoofer (VTF-3MK5). For the other speakers though I went ahead with the Pioneer Elite LCR & SL/SR (1 SP-EC73 & 4 SP-EBS73's). The Pioneers seemed to hit the size/performance sweet spot for me. Just as an idea, my wife thinks the Elite bookshelf speakers are huge... Wait 'till she sees the subwoofer!

The subwoofer hasn't arrived yet so I can't report on it, but I updated my receiver's firmware, changed the speaker impedence setting from 8-ohm to 6-ohm and added the front presence speakers to the configuration. So far the center speaker delivers awesome clear dialogue at any volume and the left and right speakers are surprisingly bass-ey and put out a delightful, robust sound to my untrained ear. I need to run the auto calibration again though once all is the speakers are installed. As soon as the subwoofer gets here I'll update this report.

I'll post up some photos later. I had to do some serious drilling to get my speaker wires and HDMI run, but I'm very happy with the result!

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Congratulations; great choice.

I'd put the switch back to 8 ohms.

How is the heat on the Yamaha receiver when watching a loud movie?

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post #19 of 32 Old 01-11-2019, 10:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Congratulations; great choice.

I'd put the switch back to 8 ohms.

How is the heat on the Yamaha receiver when watching a loud movie?
Thanks. Can you explain a little bit about the reasoning for switching back to 8 ohm though. I'm unclear on that. I thought that because the Pioneer Elite speakers are 4ohm that a 6 ohm setting would be closer to idea than an 8 ohm setting...

I haven't checked the temperature but I will. Thanks for the suggestion.

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post #20 of 32 Old 01-11-2019, 10:31 AM
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Thanks. Can you explain a little bit about the reasoning for switching back to 8 ohm though. I'm unclear on that. I thought that because the Pioneer Elite speakers are 4ohm that a 6 ohm setting would be closer to idea than an 8 ohm setting...

I haven't checked the temperature but I will. Thanks for the suggestion.

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This explains the ohm switch well.

http://www.audioholics.com/audio-am...ector-switch-1
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post #21 of 32 Old 01-11-2019, 10:56 AM
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Pioneer Elite 4 ohm speakers, Atmos & wisdom?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joar_Lightfist View Post
Thanks. Can you explain a little bit about the reasoning for switching back to 8 ohm though. I'm unclear on that. I thought that because the Pioneer Elite speakers are 4ohm that a 6 ohm setting would be closer to idea than an 8 ohm setting...

I haven't checked the temperature but I will. Thanks for the suggestion.

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Quick question to just think about, what exactly do you expect that switch to do...? No wrong answers.

But yes, leave the amplifier at 8 ohms. The switch on there only limits the current so it can pass certification, does nothing to improve the sound, more often than not it’s very detrimental to it actually.
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Last edited by Russdawg1; 01-11-2019 at 11:09 AM.
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post #22 of 32 Old 01-11-2019, 09:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Awesome guys. Thanks for the heads up and the information. I switched it back to 8 ohm and it does sound more full and unrestrained. The receiver does get a bit warm...

I'll keep an eye on it and see if it seems to get overly hot.

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post #23 of 32 Old 01-11-2019, 09:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quick question to just think about, what exactly do you expect that switch to do...? No wrong answers.
To be totally honest... I have no idea.

I know very little about electrical and very little about audio equipment so... Uninformed assumptions are rife. I like learning though. Improvement is joy to me.

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post #24 of 32 Old 01-13-2019, 09:58 AM - Thread Starter
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I watched Mission Impossible: Fallout and The Meg this week at high volume and the receiver just got warm. I suppose I should keep an eye on it once I add in the two rear channels though.

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post #25 of 32 Old 01-13-2019, 10:20 AM
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I watched Mission Impossible: Fallout and The Meg this week at high volume and the receiver just got warm. I suppose I should keep an eye on it once I add in the two rear channels though.

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The surround channels barely pull any wattage, you’ll be fine How did it sound is the real question
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post #26 of 32 Old 01-13-2019, 08:35 PM - Thread Starter
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It sounded awesome! So good.

One thing I noticed about the new sub in my unique space is that the sound from the living room seems to resonate in the study about 30' away. I turned on some techno music yesterday just to appreciate the manly bass and I walked from the living room through the dining room and into the study... It seemed like the bass doubled when I stepped into the study. It shook my whole body!

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post #27 of 32 Old 01-13-2019, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Joar_Lightfist View Post
It sounded awesome! So good.

One thing I noticed about the new sub in my unique space is that the sound from the living room seems to resonate in the study about 30' away. I turned on some techno music yesterday just to appreciate the manly bass and I walked from the living room through the dining room and into the study... It seemed like the bass doubled when I stepped into the study. It shook my whole body!

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Yea, non treated rooms will allow bass to seem into other areas with those other areas sometimes resonating even louder than the intended area. I was blasting music in my room and I was getting intense chest kicks in the living room which is through 3 walls and about 20 feet....

Benefit? I think yes.
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post #28 of 32 Old 01-14-2019, 08:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Haha! It's kinda like finding a Dorito with tons of extra flavoring on it... an extra special treat. I started watching James Cameron's Avatar last night. Awesome soundtrack made so much better by my new setup!
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post #29 of 32 Old 01-14-2019, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joar_Lightfist View Post
It sounded awesome! So good.

One thing I noticed about the new sub in my unique space is that the sound from the living room seems to resonate in the study about 30' away. I turned on some techno music yesterday just to appreciate the manly bass and I walked from the living room through the dining room and into the study... It seemed like the bass doubled when I stepped into the study. It shook my whole body!

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
The VTF3 is perhaps the best bang for buck 15" subs out there.

Are you running it with 2 ports open?

I was VERY impressed with the smaller entry level VTF1 that my sister in laws own when I visited Miami 2 weeks ago.

Punchy, no overhang, very musical.

Geoff A. J., California
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post #30 of 32 Old 01-14-2019, 02:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gajCA View Post
The VTF3 is perhaps the best bang for buck 15" subs out there.

Are you running it with 2 ports open?

I was VERY impressed with the smaller entry level VTF1 that my sister in laws own when I visited Miami 2 weeks ago.

Punchy, no overhang, very musical.
I am running it with all ports open... although I don't know that this is the best configuration for my space... it just came that way. My VTF3-MK5 didn't come with any port plugs or anything like that... Can anyone who has experience with this sub (or just subs in general) give some feedback about the ramifications of closing a port?
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