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post #1 of 22 Old 01-11-2019, 08:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Speaker placement help (open floor plan)

Hello,

our house is being repaired after storm damage, so I am taking the opportunity to add some upgrades. I am setting up for a 5.2.4 atmos. So far I have:

4 Sonance 6.5 in ceiling with pre-construction brackets
Pioneer Elite 503 AVR
Polk Monitor 10 series floors (will be replaced)
Acoustic research center (will be replaced)

I have a few questions / problems. The main one is speaker placement. We have an open living room to the kitchen/dining room. This can't be changed with a false wall or anything, so not an option. We also have french doors and big windows, lol.

Below is a sketch up of the room. It isn't to exact proportions, but its close enough (if anyone needs measurements, please ask). The 4 orange/white dots are the in ceiling, the black circles are fronts and rears, and the 2 black squares are subs.

I know this is far from ideal and I do not expect anything other than immersion, but I also want to set it up right.
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post #2 of 22 Old 01-11-2019, 09:47 AM
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IF you put the surrounds on the back wall, how far apart can you spread them symmetrically (relative to the main listening position)? Have you already installed the ceiling speakers?

Sanjay
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post #3 of 22 Old 01-11-2019, 09:56 AM - Thread Starter
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IF you put the surrounds on the back wall, how far apart can you spread them symmetrically (relative to the main listening position)? Have you already installed the ceiling speakers?
Nothing has been installed yet (its down to the studs right now and waiting on trusses).

There are two big windows on the wall behind the couch, so the surrounds would be very far apart (about 7 feet) if placed there. The right surround could be in line with the right front, but the left surround would have to be 1-2 feet to the left of being in line with the left front.


Should the surrounds be behind the ceiling speakers? I thought they would need to go on stands because the in ceiling are going to be very close to the back wall.

Edit: sorry, to actually answer your question: they cannot be symmetrically spread if placed on the wall. For a portion of the seating they would, but not in general. The left would be about 2 feet off from symmetrical.

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post #4 of 22 Old 01-11-2019, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Xenuprime View Post
The right surround could be in line with the right front, but the left surround would have to be 1-2 feet to the left of being in line with the left front.
Can the right surround be placed symmetrically on the back wall (1-2 feet to the right of the right front)?
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Should the surrounds be behind the ceiling speakers?
With a 5.1 layout, the surrounds should be around 110 degrees from centre. Spread the surrounds as wide apart as symmetrically possible will make them less distracting and more enveloping. I would put the rear ceiling speakers as far back as possible (as close to the back wall as possible), so those sounds are heard from behind you rather that directly overhead.

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post #5 of 22 Old 01-11-2019, 11:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Can the right surround be placed symmetrically on the back wall (1-2 feet to the right of the right front)? With a 5.1 layout, the surrounds should be around 110 degrees from centre. Spread the surrounds as wide apart as symmetrically possible will make them less distracting and more enveloping. I would put the rear ceiling speakers as far back as possible (as close to the back wall as possible), so those sounds are heard from behind you rather that directly overhead.
1. I could possible put it 1 foot (maybe a few more inches) to the right of the right front. This all depends if I can wall mount them. the wife has some say in that as well, and I have no idea if she will care or not. How high up would they need to be mounted? the ceiling is 10'. Wouldn't they then be in more competition with the ceiling speakers? Maybe a ceiling mount for the surrounds that hangs down to wall mount height?

2. Yeah, I'll get them just a few inches from the wall.

I'm a little stressed about it because I need to go ahead and order the speaker wire, RCA, wall plates, etc., so that I can be ready after the roofer is done and before the drywall guys get in there. At least I have the Cat6 and ports figured out!


Edit: Ok, so I talked to the contractor and he said because we are rebuilding that back wall, we can move the window slightly and I can get the surrounds symmetrically spaced.

Also, I attached a pic showing that back wall and window and another pic showing where that wall meets the kitchen.
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post #6 of 22 Old 01-11-2019, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Xenuprime View Post
Hello,

our house is being repaired after storm damage, so I am taking the opportunity to add some upgrades. I am setting up for a 5.2.4 atmos. So far I have:

4 Sonance 6.5 in ceiling with pre-construction brackets
Pioneer Elite 503 AVR
Polk Monitor 10 series floors (will be replaced)
Acoustic research center (will be replaced)

I have a few questions / problems. The main one is speaker placement. We have an open living room to the kitchen/dining room. This can't be changed with a false wall or anything, so not an option. We also have french doors and big windows, lol.

Below is a sketch up of the room. It isn't to exact proportions, but its close enough (if anyone needs measurements, please ask). The 4 orange/white dots are the in ceiling, the black circles are fronts and rears, and the 2 black squares are subs.

I know this is far from ideal and I do not expect anything other than immersion, but I also want to set it up right.
Welcome to the world of modern homes. My condo is jut like your house. My kitchen/living room/dining room are all one room. Below is a pic of my place. The surrounds are not in an idea space however with room correction everything sounds awesome. I had a friend over last week who is also a AV enthusiasts and he told me that my setup sounds better than most. If you can get all of your bed channels on the floor or in the wall room correction should make things sound right and incorporate the atmos speakers to get the correct experience you are looking for.
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post #7 of 22 Old 01-11-2019, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenuprime View Post
I could possible put it 1 foot (maybe a few more inches) to the right of the right front.
Whatever it takes to have both surround speakers as symmetrical as possible relative to the main listening position.
Quote:
How high up would they need to be mounted? the ceiling is 10'.
The whole point of Atmos is to separate sounds around you versus sounds above you. The higher up you place the surrounds, the less the separation, the more you diminish the Atmos effect. With that in mind, I would try to keep the surrounds just above seated ear height.

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post #8 of 22 Old 01-11-2019, 12:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dave-T View Post
Welcome to the world of modern homes. My condo is jut like your house. My kitchen/living room/dining room are all one room. Below is a pic of my place. The surrounds are not in an idea space however with room correction everything sounds awesome. I had a friend over last week who is also a AV enthusiasts and he told me that my setup sounds better than most. If you can get all of your bed channels on the floor or in the wall room correction should make things sound right and incorporate the atmos speakers to get the correct experience you are looking for.
Nicely done, it looks so clean! I haven't seriously considered in wall speakers because I thought for some reason they wouldn't work in the open area (mine is 20 x 20 measured to where the kitchen starts). I also thought they aren't as good as similar priced free standing speakers?

Also, my daughters bedroom is the room behind the TV. Would in-wall speakers be any worse than floor speakers as far as noise leak into her room?

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Whatever it takes to have both surround speakers as symmetrical as possible relative to the main listening position. The whole point of Atmos is to separate sounds around you versus sounds above you. The higher up you place the surrounds, the less the separation, the more you diminish the Atmos effect. With that in mind, I would try to keep the surrounds just above seated ear height.
Thats why I was thinking of stands for the surrounds. I think that lets me get them as separated as possible (and I can move them if necessary).


By the way, I really appreciate this everyone. I have no one here to bounce these ideas off of.
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post #9 of 22 Old 01-11-2019, 12:24 PM
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I talked to the contractor and he said because we are rebuilding that back wall, we can move the window slightly and I can get the surrounds symmetrically spaced.
I'm ass-uming the middle seat of the sectional facing the TV is the main listening position. Draw a line from the main listening position straight to the back wall and centre the window on that spot.

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post #10 of 22 Old 01-11-2019, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm ass-uming the middle seat of the sectional facing the TV is the main listening position. Draw a line from the main listening position straight to the back wall and centre the window on that spot.
Good idea, thanks! Dave-T has me thinking about in-wall speakers for front and center. I was going to go with JBL Studio 280's and the 235c. There is a sale on refurbished ones (out of stock at the moment).

My daughters bedroom is the room behind the TV. Would in-wall speakers be any worse than floor speakers as far as noise leak into her room?
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post #11 of 22 Old 01-11-2019, 12:55 PM
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Good idea, thanks! Dave-T has me thinking about in-wall speakers for front and center. I was going to go with JBL Studio 280's and the 235c. There is a sale on refurbished ones (out of stock at the moment).

My daughters bedroom is the room behind the TV. Would in-wall speakers be any worse than floor speakers as far as noise leak into her room?
my bedroom is on the otherside of the wall my main speakers are on. I would never hear the end of it from my wife if it was bad because I stay up late and watch movies whiles its sleeping. If the speakers are installed correctly with back boxes and insulation you should be fine. The problem you may have will have with noise is the LFE channel. I have both of my JL F112v2's on isolation platforms that help dramatically. I like the in-walls because I save a ton of room and look clean.
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post #12 of 22 Old 01-11-2019, 01:00 PM - Thread Starter
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my bedroom is on the otherside of the wall my main speakers are on. I would never hear the end of it from my wife if it was bad because I stay up late and watch movies whiles its sleeping. If the speakers are installed correctly with back boxes and insulation you should be fine. The problem you may have will have with noise is the LFE channel. I have both of my JL F112v2's on isolation platforms that help dramatically. I like the in-walls because I save a ton of room and look clean.
Same here. I'm the night owl up watching movies calibrating the TV lol

Do you mind if I ask what brand the in wall are? Also, I guess the size of the center is limited by the stud width?

What about sub placement? I would like to order the wall plates and I still am not sure the placement in my pic is good. If I went with in wall fronts, the 2 subs could take their place on the floor, on either side of the entertainment center.

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I have 5 B&W CWM7.3's for my bed channels and 4 B&W CCM682's for my Atmos speakers with 2 JL Audio F112v2's for LFE I run a Rotel RMB-1585 class ab for the bed channels and a Rotel RMb-1575 class D for the Atmos channels all connected to a Marantz 8805 processor. my room is 20' w x 21' l x 9' high.
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post #14 of 22 Old 01-11-2019, 01:26 PM - Thread Starter
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I have 5 B&W CWM7.3's for my bed channels and 4 B&W CCM682's for my Atmos speakers with 2 JL Audio F112v2's for LFE I run a Rotel RMB-1585 class ab for the bed channels and a Rotel RMb-1575 class D for the Atmos channels all connected to a Marantz 8805 processor. my room is 20' w x 21' l x 9' high.
Ok, I think I owe someone money just for googling those. Amazing setup, man! My budget for fronts, center, and rears is less than the price of one of your B&W CWM7.3, lol!

I think I'll start with freestanding and move to in wall, as I can afford the good ones. I am running smurf tube, so future installs should be easy(er).

I see there aren't many angled in walls. that is what I would need for the rears because of that window on the back wall.
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post #15 of 22 Old 01-11-2019, 08:47 PM
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I think I'll start with freestanding and move to in wall, as I can afford the good ones.
If you're going with freestanding, aim your fronts & surrounds towards the listener at the opposite end of the couch (keeps the nearby speaker from dominating).

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post #16 of 22 Old 01-11-2019, 08:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Kind of stuck now on the side surrounds. I had planned on using stands, but I really dont want to. If I mount them to the back wall (or use in-wall) that puts them at about a 45 degree angle to the mlp (not ideal). Any suggestions?

Edit: what if I got these: http://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=13687 as the side surrounds?

They would be behind the mlp, but they would be amiable to at least 90 degrees I think (the mounting point would be 103" away at 45 degrees).



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I think I'll start with freestanding and move to in wall, as I can afford the good ones.
If you're going with freestanding, aim your fronts & surrounds towards the listener at the opposite end of the couch (keeps the nearby speaker from dominating).
Good point, thanks!

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post #17 of 22 Old 01-12-2019, 12:47 PM - Thread Starter
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So, what do you guys think of using in-wall behind the couch for the side surrounds? They would be 9' back and to the side at about a 45 degree angle, using something like:

This: Monoprice Alpha In Wall Surround Speaker Dual 5.25 Inch Carbon Fiber 2-way Vari-Angled (single) - 113687 http://www.amazon.com/dp/B017BE4AGW..._IBJoCbDFEA8S5

Or this: SpeakerCraft AIM LCR3 Five Pivoting Home Cinema Speaker - Each (White) http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001TK3E2Q..._HqKoCbSQNBR1N

I know they should be to the side of mlp and preferably at 90 to 120 degrees, but how bad would the in-wall as described above be considering the room layout and limitations?
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post #18 of 22 Old 01-12-2019, 11:01 PM
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...a pic showing that back wall and window and another pic showing where that wall meets the kitchen.
Ah...I think you need to turn down your subwoofer gain
On a more serious note, don't stress so much about ordering the stuff. Just order it! Order a bunch of speaker wire, it is not so expensive in the context of your whole remodel. You'll have some long runs, so get like 10-gauge.
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post #19 of 22 Old 01-13-2019, 09:08 AM
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Kind of stuck now on the side surrounds. I had planned on using stands, but I really dont want to.
I think for movies I'd go for angled in-walls. Most of all not even due to acoustics but because let's face it, speakers on stands seldom look attractive. Movie surround tends to be more immersive and less discrete and thus exactly where your speakers are I think doesn't matter as much as for surround music where the couple studios I've seen have speakers at the "proper" angles, directly firing at the mix position.
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post #20 of 22 Old 01-13-2019, 10:44 AM - Thread Starter
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...a pic showing that back wall and window and another pic showing where that wall meets the kitchen.
Ah...I think you need to turn down your subwoofer gain [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif[/IMG]
On a more serious note, don't stress so much about ordering the stuff. Just order it! Order a bunch of speaker wire, it is not so expensive in the context of your whole remodel. You'll have some long runs, so get like 10-gauge.

Lol, turn it up till the walls colapse!

Actually one of my daughters was on the couch when the tree came through and my wife was in the kitchen, so its amazing no one was hurt.

It's really not knowing what speakers to order that's starting to stress me. I will have a small window for that kind of thing between when the roofers are done and the dry wall guys come in. I over research things and on top of that, I'm almost a newb when it comes to home theatre audio.

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Kind of stuck now on the side surrounds. I had planned on using stands, but I really dont want to.
I think for movies I'd go for angled in-walls. Most of all not even due to acoustics but because let's face it, speakers on stands seldom look attractive. Movie surround tends to be more immersive and less discrete and thus exactly where your speakers are I think doesn't matter as much as for surround music where the couple studios I've seen have speakers at the "proper" angles, directly firing at the mix position.
Thanks! So, check this out. Last night I was reading the Dolby atmos 5.1.4 setup recommendations and noticed they were different from the ones I've seen before. Apparently at some point they changed and I was looking at the old one. The new one shows (see below) that the side surrounds should be BEHIND the overhead atmos.

This helps me because it looks like I can move the couch back a little, put the angled speakers in the wall and have about a 120 degree angle to the mlp. It will be close, but I'm headed over there today to check the angles and see it theres enough room for everything to breathe in that setup. Anyone see problems with this? Am I seeing this wrong?

Can anyone look at the angled speakers I linked above and recommend either? Or if you have any others you know of that arent crazy expensive (still have to pay the deductible lol)?

Thank everyone
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post #21 of 22 Old 01-13-2019, 03:57 PM
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Can anyone look at the angled speakers I linked above and recommend either?
I have no idea how they sound, but I'll point out they are different. The Speakercraft have woofers pointing straight ahead. The pointable tweeter can only direct the high frequencies. The Monoprice has the woofers actually angled, so if the points more how you need get those (too tired from yard work to process your setup, sorry! )
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post #22 of 22 Old 01-13-2019, 08:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Can anyone look at the angled speakers I linked above and recommend either?
I have no idea how they sound, but I'll point out they are different. The Speakercraft have woofers pointing straight ahead. The pointable tweeter can only direct the high frequencies. The Monoprice has the woofers actually angled, so if the points more how you need get those (too tired from yard work to process your setup, sorry! [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/IMG])
Thanks for pointing that out. I thought the speakercraft were completely directional too.

I hear you on the work, it's almost Monday and i dont feel like i had much of a weekend.

Here's my new sketchup below, that should help you visualize things.

I'll have 4' from mlp to the back wall, the in-walls will be at just over 120 degrees and a little over 8' away. That gives me 4' of room between the mlp and the wall (seems like plenty).

And if I ever go to 7.2.4, I can move the couch forward, and convert the in walls to rears, then add stand speakers.

Now I have to hunt down different angled speakers because those monoprice apparently dont fit in 4" walls.
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